P.A. Advice

[paulbass]

Hi everyone, the band i'm in at the moment use a sound engineer with his own pa but he has decided to put his fee up which we find unacceptable. We have decided to all chip in and get our own pa as we play in pubs and bike rallies mainly and the festivals we do the pa is provided.
I'm clueless on this side of things as i find its a bit of a minefield . Every band i've been in we've chipped in to buy a pa and it can prove expensive if you get it wrong. Its not just a pa, its the monitors, stands and mixers etc that bump up the overall cost. Then theres passive or active...which add to the confusion of it all!
Any advice on this would be appreciated. It needs to be quite powerful,reliable and 'cheap' as possible. Any recommendations i would be grateful for.
Thanks in advance

[JTUK]

First of all, IMO, bands have to get used to a band P.A and whilst it is acceptable for the singer to stump up for tops...
which may be all you need in some places, then the rest of the band should share the cost of subs etc ..

1st decision is what the P.A has to do within the confines of the band and how you transport it.
Make no mistake... being sole owner, means THEY carry and load to and from the gigs,,so they
may need a bigger car for the kit. How much is this worth to you...?

How much is the sound engr charging and what does he provide and do for that..?
You might find that his new rates aren't so unreasonable after all...once everything is factored in.
Consider you are getting transport, roadie, and engr PLUS his kit..??

I think a NEW P.A at very good gig spec is going to be around £3k plus... and for that you'll be looking at
QSC which should be a good band's benchmark..

Not an easy answer for all things to be considered, in one post.
Weight, carry, power, quality, size, cost..??

As I said... I'd break down what you actually have already on the table and what it will cost you.

[paulbass]

Thanks JTUK,
I do find them a lot of hassle and a right pain in the arse! But you got to have one! I have in the past been the one who had to transport the pa to and from gigs and they dont load and unload themselves and they always seem to get heavier when it comes to packing them away . The engineer we use takes a 30% cut and now wants a 50% cut which really is too much as far as we are concerned. Considering we help to unload and load it up. Our guitarist has a big van and has offered to transport it and we would only need tops as it'll be used purely for vocals. Our singer is in a low paid job and is only a youngster and he simply cant afford to buy them himself so the rest of us will buy it and recoup the cost from the gigs until its paid for.
I detest the things!

[JTUK]

Tops only..?
I'd go for something like active 12's.
My faves are Yamaha DXR12 which you could get
for around £1100 inc covers, stands and cables.
RCF and EV make have bundles as well.
These active are DSP 'rated' at around 1000w per cab
and that will get your vocal over any band in context, IMO..

A 8 channel mixer should be £250 or so and the same
for mics, cables and stands..depending how many sing
so I'd set the top line budget at £2k...and then look at how you
can chip away at that.

Of course, you can get tired and hammered cheap tops
for pennies, but I assue the band works and has a need
for a discerning vocal sound.
And any vocalist should actually be pushing for the
best quality sound for his voice and the band should buy into that, IMO

[spacey]

The Old School peavey gear, like u15/ ul15 with Black widow drivers can give anything similar a run for its money for a fraction of trend names.
At the end of day behind fancy brands lies speakers in wooden boxes.
What I like about Peavey BW gear is it is serviceable, the drivers can be stripped and cleaned to solve most rattles, a new basket bolts on so no re-cones and the horns have replaceable coils.

[Les]

Only use Peavey powered subs now but do agree with spacey, it's great, second hand it's a lot of bang for your buck.

[Norris]

Someone was selling some powered Mackie 450s on here. A pair of those with a mixing desk are ideal for small venues. Much easier than lugging a power amp around!

[Roger2611]

If you don't mind lugging round heavy gear, a pair of Peavey Hysis 2's and one of their XR mixer amps will do you proud and are not overly expensive nowadays, monitor wise Proel do a nice powered monitor for a few hundred pounds, if not that the Warfdale powered monitors are well regarded

[TheRev]

Why not just buy the same setup that your engineer has? At least you know it works for your band.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1416149946' post='2607347']
Someone was selling some powered Mackie 450s on here. A pair of those with a mixing desk are ideal for small venues. Much easier than lugging a power amp around!
[/quote]+1

Can be a bit harsh sounding, but light, powerful, easy to use. Can put a bit of kick through them if needed, but work well with an active sub. Plenty available second hand. Small mixer such as a Soundcraft efx8 and you're done!

[LemonCello]

We use an old PA consisting of JBL bass bins, mids and tops through a cheap Behringer mixer powered by 2 x Yamaha amps. There is also 4 foldback monitors, one for each of us and although it all sounds great, humping it is a mother! We really must get some lighter gear!

[gelfin]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1416166898' post='2607558']
+1

Can be a bit harsh sounding, but light, powerful, easy to use. Can put a bit of kick through them if needed, but work well with an active sub. Plenty available second hand. Small mixer such as a Soundcraft efx8 and you're done!
[/quote]

Take a serious look at the Mackies.

If I didn't need them I would go for them.

Edited November 16, 2014 by gelfin

[Monckyman]

You say 50% is unacceptable,but what is that 50% of on average?
If you only make £400 a gig then half that for an engineer, a rig, transport etc, is actiually well below average.
What you aren't factoring in is his skill, and what he does while you are playing,to enhance your bands earning potential.
It sounds to me like you ought to be asking more per gig than trying to cut back on your production.
I suggest you think a bit more about how much it will cost you to match what he does, and how long it will take you to pay for it.

[gelfin]

As a guide for you if I take my PA out for another band. Transport, set up and operate I charge £150 for a local gig, more depending on distance.

PA is 24 Channel Soundcraft plus FX. Carlsbro active tops 400W. 4 custom built mids and subs. 4 Crown power amps. Six monitors.

That's a bargain.

If they want the lighting system its an extra £100 for my mate to set up and operate..

[Phil Starr]

You might find this useful if you want a little light background reading [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207"]http://www.ultimate-...d.php?t=1591207[/url]

Basically you'll need to decide whether to go for an active mixer with passive speakers or a pair of active speakers with a passive mixer. I'd also go for active monitors as this cuts down on lugging amplifiers around and also cuts down the lead jungle. Don't forget you'll need mics and stands and this all eats into the budget, as do speaker stands and leads. Like everyone else I'd say start out by looking at 12" tops.

QSC, Mackie, EV, JBL, Yamaha and Wharfedale have all been mentioned and are good. Steer clear of Peavey, the black widow drivers are excellent and the subs are good as a result but the horn driver they use in their PA cabs is truly awful for vocals, your main use. They have reportedly replaced it in their latest kit but I've not heard them yet.

Unless you have a mic you should budget in the £100 range for one. I'd steer you away from the Shure SM58, it's a 50 year old design and showing it a bit. It's tough and undemanding of vocal technique but other mic's have better sound and reject feedback better, go for the beta58 if you must have a Shure, if not look at AKG D5, Sennheiser E835 and up, EV nd767a and Audix OM5, OM7.

Everyone is currently upgrading their PA's to active and lightweight at the moment, this means the secondhand market is really good for bargains if you go for passive tops. There were a couple of Yamaha S112's went for £113 a week ago on fleabay. I've had good experiences with Behringer mixers if you need to keep the price down but upgraded to a Yamaha mixer which does sound better.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Phil Starr

[Kevin Dean]

I use Peavey UL 12" tops , I did have UL subs but a keyboard player blew them I replaced them with one Alto powered sub & it's fantastic & a great price .

[spacey]

With the peavey gear, they switched to the same Chinese drivers most others use a few years back.
The BW loaded stuff was very good, the cheap Chinese stuff, total pants and no better than bargain basement Wharfdale stuff.
A lot of the premium designer brands are now Eminence loaded which is OK, but the drivers do have a tendency to just stop working without warning.

Edited November 17, 2014 by spacey

[JTUK]

This is why you need a good warranty and that costs.
I think QSC have a 7 yr warranty, iirc... so that justifies them top of that particular file, IMO.
Sound-wise not so much, but YMMV.

I have had many conversations with shops and repairers and I can recall that JBL, HK and Mackie have all had a run of
breakages, to the point that the retailer or repairer question whethere they are worth bothering with.
It goes without saying that Behringer, and Fenix conponent boxes suffer as badly or worse, but then they are cheap.

The problem with PV has always been the horns, tbh... but a lot of that could also be that they are hammered and hammered
and the chassis are decent... so whilst you get the woofer working ok after 15 years of 'abuse', the horns distort and the band either puts up with it or is oblivious.
I can honestly say if I go to see a band and they have PV tops, then I can't recall one that didn't have very distorted top end.
And the first thing I note from any new band is the P.A.as this is a very good indicator about how much they care or know about sound.

[bassfunk]

We use a pair of Mackie SRM450 tops and a Mackie Sub. We have 3 wharfedale monitors, I'm on wired IEM and the Keys is on wireless IEM. The Mackies are sometimes a little harsh sounding as said above but they do the job and ensure the vocals can be heard in the mix. They're not overly heavy and the earlier ones are supposed to be more reliable. It saves having to buy power amps and crossovers etc.

One vocalist I know has some RCF active tops. They're a bit 'smoother' sounding than our Mackies and would probably go for them if I had a choice.

As JTUK has said QSC are nice but if you're only doing pubs can you really justify the extra expense? 2nd hand Active speakers that haven't been battered are the way to go IMHO for the kind of gigs you're doing. If you get more/bigger gigs and want to upgrade you can turn your current tops into monitors.

[spacey]

The clearest I have are a pair of yamaha 12" + 2" horn tops, very small and compact, loud but very clear sounding.
Yamaha is often looked over as well as "boring" but they do have some very goood PA gear.

[funkgod]

Peavey pa gear agreed, its on the money !
A pair of xt bins can be had on ebay cheap and they are the dogs, light, powerfull, relyable
a whole peavey pa with a good active xover like the behringer one, two power amps,and desk
will sound good enough for most places.

if you have a bit more cash ( and space) and want a bit better sound ( subjective ) with less hass, then look for an older HK actor rig
About £1500 with covers for a tidy one.
the great thing about the actor rig is all the boxes are powered so for small gigs just take the tops
bigger gigs 2 bins two tops and bigger or out door gigs the 4 bins and two tops, with still only 2 leads
from the desk feeding all combinations...

i have used and hired out both for years, and not had an issue with either. to me the HK sounds better and so much easyer and quicker to set up and looks the part, but peavey gear i have been using since the 80s and has over the years been great if looked after,
so thats just stayed with me,

Regarding the "cheaper" wharfedale speakers, i now only have the
powered wharfedale 400w 15" and 300w 12" monitors, .... only ever had 1 major problem with a 2nd hand one i got, but what a great sound for the money.
a friend got some of the newer behringer powered monitors and have to say they sound good also for even cheaper cash.

[Dad3353]

Another happy passive HK user here; admittedly we don't go 'out' that much now, but they're in weekly use for our rehearsals. Voice only, with a touch of kick and overhead to 'blend' the drums, and that's it. Tops only, no need for subs for the repertoire and venues we play, even outdoors. I've had the system for more years than I care to remember, and obtained it used from a buddy who has a PA business. Never a problem, never a failure. Coupled with a cheap 2x300W stereo power amp, mixing is now a small Soundcraft console. Simple, minimalist and efficient.

[paulbass]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Theres plenty food for thought here. The Mackies seem to be what a lot of people are going for and you can get some good bargains off the net for a pair of these. I'll have a chat with the other members of the band and see how they feel. Thanks again for all your advice

[paulbass]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1416211602' post='2607867']
You might find this useful if you want a little light background reading [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207"]http://www.ultimate-...d.php?t=1591207[/url]

Basically you'll need to decide whether to go for an active mixer with passive speakers or a pair of active speakers with a passive mixer. I'd also go for active monitors as this cuts down on lugging amplifiers around and also cuts down the lead jungle. Don't forget you'll need mics and stands and this all eats into the budget, as do speaker stands and leads. Like everyone else I'd say start out by looking at 12" tops.

QSC, Mackie, EV, JBL, Yamaha and Wharfedale have all been mentioned and are good. Steer clear of Peavey, the black widow drivers are excellent and the subs are good as a result but the horn driver they use in their PA cabs is truly awful for vocals, your main use. They have reportedly replaced it in their latest kit but I've not heard them yet.

Unless you have a mic you should budget in the £100 range for one. I'd steer you away from the Shure SM58, it's a 50 year old design and showing it a bit. It's tough and undemanding of vocal technique but other mic's have better sound and reject feedback better, go for the beta58 if you must have a Shure, if not look at AKG D5, Sennheiser E835 and up, EV nd767a and Audix OM5, OM7.

Everyone is currently upgrading their PA's to active and lightweight at the moment, this means the secondhand market is really good for bargains if you go for passive tops. There were a couple of Yamaha S112's went for £113 a week ago on fleabay. I've had good experiences with Behringer mixers if you need to keep the price down but upgraded to a Yamaha mixer which does sound better.
[/quote]
Thanks for the link and advice Phil. This could prove very useful

[JTUK]

The point about 2" horns is pertinent IMO and I think you can justify that as an option.
We only changed our POV when we heard the Yamaha DXR. We now favour it
over QSC but the final call is with the vocalist who prefers the Yams...
If it were left to me and price wasn't also a consideration, I would have have gone
for KW112, but that is not like for like as the boxes are also wood which I felt was
important if top only, as they could handle kick and keys bass-wise, a bit better
Since we always planned to run with a sub..we thought we could afford to lose
that 'luxury' and the long warranty...maybe.
RCF ART are good and pokey but you don't want to be in line with them as the
horns are harsh...not sounding, but piercing. So for pubs, that isn't helpful to
the audience as you don't get to choose where you can put them. They can quickly blow ears.

Edited November 17, 2014 by JTUK