blue Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) [size=5][font=Arial]As you all know being in a working band for some of us comes with pros and cons. At the core is how we came into music and where were at now. For many of us, were in bands where the members differ[/font][/size] [size=5][font=Arial]in age, race, culturally, education, economics, musicale taste, ability and expectations.[/font][/size] [size=5][font=Arial]Here are a few bullet points you might be familiar with;[/font][/size][list] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Age difference, the members that can only relate to music of their generation[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Bring songs to the band based on what they personally like not what fits the band or your audience[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Does not understand the [i]"entertainer[/i]" piece of being in a working band[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Does not maintain or invest in appropriate gear[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Inconsistent performances[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Doesn't understand how to work as a team[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Great musician, but not band material[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]Not available for all gigs[/font][/size] [*][size=5][font=Arial]The band is a low priority in their life[/font][/size] [/list] [size=5][font=Arial]Those are just a few examples there are many more.[/font][/size] [size=5][font=Arial]Where are you coming from and what issues are you dealing with when it comes to members of your band?[/font][/size] [size=5][font=Arial]Blue[/font][/size] Edited November 23, 2014 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Deere Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Age difference was a problem in a band I was in a few years ago, we all seemed to want to play styles from different eras. Currently its availability for rehearsals and gigs, which I believe stems from the band being a low priority. The problem with this is as we are forced to turn gigs down other highly motivated band members, myself included, are loosing interest so it's almost contagious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It's a minefield. You have to be a diplomat, a dictator, and a counsellor all rolled into one. I learned the first of many lessons regarding this many years ago, when the band I was in had a young and very earnest drummer, who was spending a lot of his spare time working on his grooves and timekeeping. Thinking I would try and help him out (he was also very skint) I bought him a little electronic metronome, and gave it to him at rehearsal one night. He accepted it with a smile and enthusiastic thanks, then left the band the following day, saying that I had "embarrassed and insulted" him. Oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I tend to pick people that can move in the same musical direction.. and then I want to see what they can bring to the party. What is not fixable is chemistry but you can help the band by choosing or keeping songs that work. The direction of song choices will vary and might evolve over a period of time and this in itself might causes problems, but by this time you should see the point of that 'change' of direction and benefit from it. A few non-negotiables are bad chemistry and bad playing...IMO. but it is also pointless playing your arses off and not getting numbers thru the door. The better players will cost more ...typically...so you need to crack the equation of top dollar members fees with venue fees. This is why you have to try and get out of the pubs as soon as possible, IME. I'm not saying pubs don't have their place...they certainly do, but a good band will not be sustainable on that revenue alone... unless you play ska ( around here ) whihc rams the pubs and therefore justifies the far better fees... So... if the band is good and great fun, most other things can be 'tolerated'... but like all these things there are degrees of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I`ve been in bands with some people who were difficult to work with. One (a lead guitarist) was a control-freak who would routinely say "I`m not doing that gig" irrespective of whether the rest of us wanted to do it or not. So we rehearsed without him, and were prepared to do the gigs without him. Luckily he left the band, one of the happiest days I can think of. The other (another lead guitarist) was just a nightmare down to communication and personal admin skills. Never replying to if he could do gigs without being chased, that sort of thing. Would proudly annouce he`d just updated the website which showed our next gig as being 3 weeks ago - so only Dr Who could see it. But for me, the second guys behaviour wasn`t deliberate, whereas the other guys was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"...which showed our next gig as being 3 weeks ago - so only Dr Who could see it."[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Genius. [/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It isn't going to work very well, if the guy can't get to gigs, but you wouldn't pick a guy who hadn't gigged before and knew what was what... There are basics that are a given...IMO. So the ability to run a diary, be up to speed on the set, and play well and bring something else to it..is where you should start, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Oh yes: At the moment very much the one about wanting to do songs they like personally (or allows them to showcase), without regard for the rest of the band's tastes or what a prospective audience will want to hear! We tried the approach of everyone suggesting three songs and then agreeing on one from each person's list. In response the singer circulates a list of [b]21[/b] songs he wants to do, the vast majority of which are album tracks that most people[size=4] (including myself) [/size][size=4]have never heard of ! [/size]At the same time a very sneering attitude to anything that anyone else suggests. I'm all for doing something a little bit different, but (IMO) 95% of a covers band set needs to be stuff that the audience will at least recognise. I could quite happily do a complete set of Family and Roger Chapman covers, but I'm realistic enough to know that it would not go down well with a typical pub audience. It's a shame because I think it will end with the band folding. Grrrrrr. So, Blue, if I may add to your list: [list] [*]People who think that it's [i][b]their[/b][/i] band [/list] The Count. Edited November 23, 2014 by Count Bassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1416755943' post='2613193'] Oh yes: At the moment very much the one about wanting to do songs they like personally (or allows them to showcase), without regard for the rest of the band's tastes or what a prospective audience will want to hear! We tried the approach of everyone suggesting three songs and then agreeing on one from each person's list. In response the singer circulates a list of [b]21[/b] songs he wants to do, the vast majority of which are album tracks that most people[size=4] (including myself) [/size][size=4]have never heard of ! [/size]At the same time a very sneering attitude to anything that anyone else suggests. I'm all for doing something a little bit different, but (IMO) 95% of a covers band set needs to be stuff that the audience will at least recognise. I could quite happily do a complete set of Family and Roger Chapman covers, but I'm realistic enough to know that it would not go down well with a typical pub audience. It's a shame because I think it will end with the band folding. Grrrrrr. So, Blue, if I may add to your list: [list] [*]People who think that it's [i][b]their[/b][/i] band [/list] [/quote] This is pretty close to home for me..... as we had everything going in the right direction and everyone pretty much on the same page. But then one member change can undo all that. When you go to pick new numbers...Come prepared and do your homework... don't just bring an ipad with spotify and go thru everything that crops up ... so you hog the whole session. This is disjointed thinking an shows a lack of thinking AND respect ...and shows a selfish side that you really need to nip in the bud. Members should have 3-5 songs max...and it is down to them to choose those 5 ..not add another 5 on the night. If you steer away from the accepted agreed brief, you start to lose direction and focus on what you are trying to do. I am all for a varied set and doing songs that are a bit off the radar as some audiences are more open and knowledgeable than you would think, but that is why you need 3 sets. We have a pub set..in which everything goes ( on the basis that the money doesn't justify us doing anything other than what we want to do. We will live or die on those choices anyway ) We also have a aprty set which really needs to capture the crowd... and we also need a festival set which needs to do the same,so the latter two are closer in purpose and content than you think.. And finally, don't let anyone think it is their band unless you really want to give up all control. If that was the case... I'd say fine, I'll do what YOU want, but you don't get to pick what monies I'll play for or when I am available.. ( I'll take dep.session player status now ) .......and then be prepared to walk Edited November 23, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) All good examples of band issues and some of them can take a whole band down. I think this thread will be helpful to those scouting gigging bands. First and foremost you have to know yourself, second a very clear and concise idea of what kind of band your looking for. For example;[list] [*]If your looking for $$$$ and a band with business on the books, you wouldn't want to entertain the idea or waste time on a band with no gigging or very little gigging history. [*]If your looking for high end gigs, you don't join a bar band. [*]If being in a band where the band is a priority for all members, you wouldn't want to join a band with members with young families, clearly their family is their priority. [/list] There are other examples. If your offered a position with a band make sure you ask the questions that are important to you. If you don't ask questions, you only have yourself to blame when things go sour. A good question is why is the position open. Blue Edited November 23, 2014 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416742327' post='2613024'] It isn't going to work very well, if the guy can't get to gigs, but you wouldn't pick a guy who hadn't gigged before and knew what was what... There are basics that are a given...IMO. So the ability to run a diary, be up to speed on the set, and play well and bring something else to it..is where you should start, IMO. [/quote] Tell me to "slink my hook" out of this thread if this is an unwanted hi-jacking... JTUK, I'm a "Gigging Noob". I know enough that joining a band I need to be guided by the more experienced in the band. I know any track I suggest needs to appeal to our audience and have a good potential interest for everyone in the band. I know I need to commit to the band and turn up in plenty of time and be prepared to help others out to work as a team and get the show on the road. Added to that I need to have put enough effort in to learning the numbers and have the gear so my contribution to the act is good enough for me to earn my place and ADD to the entertainment; for all the right reasons. Can you tell me what else I'm likely to mess up enough that you wouldn't want me in your band? (No hard feelings. I'm only asking so I learn) This is an open question for anyone to answer. Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Interesting topic. Seems to me that band dynamics can sometime be more important than individual talent (well, to a degree) - no "I" in "team" and all that stuff. We're way down the musical food chain so a lot of the discussion points are not really an issue for us and "[size=5][font=Arial][i][size=4]The band is a low priority in their life"[/size][/i][size=4] is probably our defining characteristic. [/size][/font][/size] [size=5][font=Arial][size=4]But it's not really a problem in practice because we all pretty much feel the same way[/size][/font][/size] - which is probably the important thing in terms of keeping things together. Sure, there are some things I'd like to change - as I'm sure is true for the others - but not enough to make me want to put much (any?) effort into changing them. Keep calm, carry on and something better may turn up but no big deal if it doesn't. Probably not the best recipe for musical stardom, but it makes for an easy and stress-free life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1416771768' post='2613446'] Tell me to "slink my hook" out of this thread if this is an unwanted hi-jacking... JTUK, I'm a "Gigging Noob". I know enough that joining a band I need to be guided by the more experienced in the band. I know any track I suggest needs to appeal to our audience and have a good potential interest for everyone in the band. I know I need to commit to the band and turn up in plenty of time and be prepared to help others out to work as a team and get the show on the road. Added to that I need to have put enough effort in to learning the numbers and have the gear so my contribution to the act is good enough for me to earn my place and ADD to the entertainment; for all the right reasons. Can you tell me what else I'm likely to mess up enough that you wouldn't want me in your band? (No hard feelings. I'm only asking so I learn) This is an open question for anyone to answer. Many thanks [/quote] You have the basics down. But believe me, there are guys out there in bands that don't. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416772073' post='2613452'] Interesting topic. Seems to me that band dynamics can sometime be more important than individual talent (well, to a degree) - no "I" in "team" and all that stuff. We're way down the musical food chain so a lot of the discussion points are not really an issue for us and "[size=5][font=Arial][i][size=4]The band is a low priority in their life"[/size][/i][size=4] is probably our defining characteristic. [/size][/font][/size] [size=5][font=Arial][size=4]But it's not really a problem in practice because we all pretty much feel the same way[/size][/font][/size] - which is probably the important thing in terms of keeping things together. Sure, there are some things I'd like to change - as I'm sure is true for the others - but not enough to make me want to put much (any?) effort into changing them. Keep calm, carry on and something better may turn up but no big deal if it doesn't. Probably not the best recipe for musical stardom, but it makes for an easy and stress-free life. [/quote] Yeah I agree, if the band is not a priority for any of the members, then your all on the same page. No problem. The problems come into play when being in a band is a guys main priority in life and finds himself in a band with members with things other than the band higher up as a priority. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1416773865' post='2613482'] You have the basics down. But believe me, there are guys out there in bands that don't. Blue [/quote] Hi Blue, many thanks. And thanks for your interesting content - all of it, in all threads. Cheers Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 There are many guys that will join a band without doing a thorough study on the band first. A lot of guys will even skip, how much does the gig pay, how and when will I be paid. All bands are not equal splits. And most originals bands involve a band fund. I never participate or contribute to band funds. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='blue' timestamp='1416793629' post='2613701'] There are many guys that will join a band without doing a thorough study on the band first. A lot of guys will even skip, how much does the gig pay, how and when will I be paid. All bands are not equal splits. And most originals bands involve a band fund. I never participate or contribute to band funds. Blue [/quote] You raise some good points there. I would expect to be paid less I were backing a know artist. But I'd like to see sone evidence of box - office value to the writer if this was performing in a local bar band. I guess the next point is; how many original tracks do the band have to play in its repertoire for that writer to start expecting an enhanced cut. Edited November 24, 2014 by Grangur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK Jale Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I sympathise with some of the original list. One problem right now with (both) of the working bands I'm in is… material. To be clear, both bands I'm mostly in combine original (very good) songs with carefully selected, fairly obscure covers. To my mind, a band that CAN do covers and has one or more songwriters should be generating a fresh 45 minute set EVERY year, minimum. Both for the audience, and the band. But it's not happening. I can bring song suggestions to the band, and I do try, but it's always, always down to the singer. I respect that… they have to sing them. I know what that feels like. It's not a job I do nowadays. The other problem is the bands I'm in, everybody's genuinely good. They can all busk it, always, perfectly, and with flair. Basically, nobody ever rehearses. But when it comes to the next level, arranging, fine tuning, working out BVs, it almost never happens. In this scene, it's not cool. It's hard to describe the level of skill and cynicism I'm working with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK Jale Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 By the way Blue, I find your stated refusal to participate in band funds perplexing. The bands I'm with don't have a fund, but there is a small float (mostly gig money from awkward payment splits kept aside for band emergencies). But if there is a band fund, with an agreed purpose, with a realistic timescale - demo costs, PA upkeep, for instance - what's wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1416799260' post='2613707'] You raise some good points there. I would expect to be paid less I were backing a know artist. But I'd like to see sone evidence of box - office value to the writer if this was performing in a local bar band. I guess the next point is; how many original tracks do the band have to play in its repertoire for that writer to start expecting an enhanced cut. [/quote] I see where your coming from and it's a good question. Hopefully someone else can chime in on it because I don't know how that would work. Referencing the equal split question, I was more thinking about that singer or lead guitarist that feels, even at the bar level, people are coming out to see him/her specifically, the[i] "local star"[/i] type expecting a larger cut. I get that, and if that person really is the draw, that full into that " local star" category (and we have local heroes like that here) Then a larger cut is fair. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='KK Jale' timestamp='1416801789' post='2613710'] By the way Blue, I find your stated refusal to participate in band funds perplexing. The bands I'm with don't have a fund, but there is a small float (mostly gig money from awkward payment splits kept aside for band emergencies). But if there is a band fund, with an agreed purpose, with a realistic timescale - demo costs, PA upkeep, for instance - what's wrong with that? [/quote] Yeah it was pretty perplexing. Don''t get me wrong and this is really silly. I would rather pay any cooperative band expense out of my own pocket, right then and there. I'm small time and use to getting paid in full at the end of each show. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Having to deal with band members listing how rubbish and unprofessional the rest of us are on internet forums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='KK Jale' timestamp='1416801789' post='2613710'] By the way Blue, I find your stated refusal to participate in band funds perplexing. The bands I'm with don't have a fund, but there is a small float (mostly gig money from awkward payment splits kept aside for band emergencies). But if there is a band fund, with an agreed purpose, with a realistic timescale - demo costs, PA upkeep, for instance - what's wrong with that? [/quote] [quote name='blue' timestamp='1416804554' post='2613713'] Yeah it was pretty perplexing. Don''t get me wrong and this is really silly. I would rather pay any cooperative band expense out of my own pocket, right then and there. I'm small time and use to getting paid in full at the end of each show. Blue [/quote] I'm with Blue on this one. Pooling funds can have unfortunate consequences. The first 'pro' band I was in kept back money from gigs to pay for a PA and an old van, with everyone's agreement. Despite having vaguely discussed some method of compensation if someone left the band, when I decided to go I was given nothing, although I gave lots of notice and even helped finding a replacement. Understandably, the new member didn't inherit my 'share' - the remaining 4 members shares increased from 20% to 25%. I suppose we should have put it in writing, but it left a bit of a bad taste, although I was much happier moving on. It later transpired that when the band split, the singer, who had the foresight to have the van registered in their name, took the lot! There wasn't enough money in it for anyone to get letigious. Suffice to say it was a good lesson in band/money management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='KK Jale' timestamp='1416801789' post='2613710'] By the way Blue, I find your stated refusal to participate in band funds perplexing. The bands I'm with don't have a fund, but there is a small float (mostly gig money from awkward payment splits kept aside for band emergencies). But if there is a band fund, with an agreed purpose, with a realistic timescale - demo costs, PA upkeep, for instance - what's wrong with that? [/quote] Interesting one: I don't want to join a band and be hit with a bill to cover a repair on the PA, on day 1, for wear and tear from the last 10 years use. Isn't it better to simply agree that the owner of the PA (as there is inevitably a single owner; the guy who would keep it in the event that the band splits) should charge an agreed "rent" for the gear for each show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1416771768' post='2613446'] Tell me to "slink my hook" out of this thread if this is an unwanted hi-jacking... JTUK, I'm a "Gigging Noob". I know enough that joining a band I need to be guided by the more experienced in the band. I know any track I suggest needs to appeal to our audience and have a good potential interest for everyone in the band. I know I need to commit to the band and turn up in plenty of time and be prepared to help others out to work as a team and get the show on the road. Added to that I need to have put enough effort in to learning the numbers and have the gear so my contribution to the act is good enough for me to earn my place and ADD to the entertainment; for all the right reasons. Can you tell me what else I'm likely to mess up enough that you wouldn't want me in your band? (No hard feelings. I'm only asking so I learn) This is an open question for anyone to answer. Many thanks [/quote] No hard feelings at all... and I think I contributed to a thread you started about this very subject. We all have to start somewhere but the simple fact is... and I am sorry if his comes across poorly, is that a new player isn't going to get a gig with us. That doesn't mean they never will, but we wouldn't be their first band. There are always many problems to fix, and I think you have a head start on a lot of people with your general willingness to absord ..and the mere fact that you have made it work is a credit all round, but sometimes you need more than the ability to play.. you need great sounds, you need a proper attitude in your playing and you need a certain level commiserate with the gig your are going for.. There are too many variables in the unknown/unprooven... Edited November 24, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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