PaulWarning Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) [quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1417489508' post='2620960'] I hate threads like this and as such don't normally contribute but there's been some utter nonsense posted with regards to bass guitar, it's sonic space and the capability of modern sound systems... Modern sound systems (line-array setups) are designed for the best dispersion accross a large area. There's no 'gaps' in their frequency response (causing a lack of punch(!)) or indeed any 'fashion' issues going on, certainly not in my experience at least. They are the pinnacle of design and when correctly setup, work beautifully. Sound in smaller venues (such as the place I mainly work) can be an issue but thats more likely caused by an issue on stage or an inherrant problem with the room itself. The system I use has horn-loaded 18" subs and bi-amped tops with a 15" direct radiator and a 2" compression driver on a horn. 98 times out of 100, the bass sounds just like it should, the other few times are made up with incompatible and/or un-useable sounds. The old 'I couldn't hear the bass' thing usually stems from 'the bass doesn't sound like or isn't as loud as I percieve it should be' or by young johnny's dad saying he couldn't hear his lad. Never mind the rest of the group, eh.. We're all bass players on this forum covering all styles, shapes and sizes but so many complain about this subject, it really gets my goat. I've been a pro engineer for nearly 15 years and a bass player for 18 and I've both played and mixed up and down the country for all sorts. I've met and dealt with a number of jackasses from both sides but with decent communication a decent result is achievable as long as whoever you're dealing with has a clue.. Some engineers are poor at their job, can't listen or simply don't understand but we're not all like that. A comment on previous page about 'you're sticking a mic on this' would go down like lead balloon with me (and most engineers -good and bad- that I know) because it's not always the best option. Does the musicain know and understand the room? Do they know what the system is capable of? Do they know how to mix their own group? Probably a 'no' on all counts so being so arrogant as to assume they know best simply shows the short sightedness of some and the root of many problem. I shouldn't comment on threads such as this because all it does is make me mad at some of the bad / wrong knowledge out there but the 'bash the engineer' thing feels like it becomes personal as so many think we're all clueless muppets with a stinking attitude not even capable of mixing a bag of concrete. I'll gladly help anyone who wants to learn how to mix a group (or indeed a bass guitar) but I won't be told by a musicain how to do my job. If they know better, I'll zero the desk and system then they can mix the whole thing their way. Thankfully it's never got that far. I'm signing off at that as I could go on and on but its 3am and my feathers are ruffled.. Indeed. [/quote]I realise that you are far more knowledgeable than I on such issues, all I will say is why is the sound so bad so often (but not always by any means) in large venues or when a full PA is used, everybody associated with the band I'm in agrees we get the best sound with just vocals are miced and we use the backline and unmiced drums in small venues? As for fashion, it is the current fashion to have a loud bass drum, much as it was the fashion to have a loud snare in the 80's. Edited December 2, 2014 by PaulWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Speaking personally, I've had great mixed sound as long as it's my amp that's DI'd, and not a DI feed from before my amp. Having my cab miked doesn't add much but then I don't have vintage tone anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) The argument that the sound mixer guy is the authority on the bass sound, is well laughable. They always start, we prefer a DI, I bet you do, over done, raw sound of the bass, same sound as everyone else gets every gig, job done, shut up your just the bass player... Try this with the guitarist and he will wrap a les paul round a few nuts. Your tone is pretty much stable at all venues from the amp, gig in gig out, that basic sound you spent years crafting travels with you. To let some lazy mixer bloke just stick the bass straight in to the desk, yeah thats coming through, next, well you will get the sound you deserve. That will be, same as everyone else gets, every gig, which as we can gather listening to the actual real experts on bass sound "the bass players" is a complete rubbish dull mid scooped out of the mix tone. Edited December 2, 2014 by spacey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It's very simple. Bass is not absorbed by people. It effectively washes over them and bounces round the venue. The bigger the venue, the longer the reverberation time for bass. Soft objects like seats and people absorb higher frequencies. The louder you make the bass the more it will reverberate around the room. As posted several times, it's not the other instruments making it an inaudible mush it's the echo from the bass itself. Sit near the front you get more direct sound which has less of the reverberation and more of the high frequencies which define the note. Often the high/mid will be cut to make way for more important components of the music. Another thing to touch on is overplaying. The more notes you play live (and lots of musicians adlib and overplay in a live setting) the more cluttered the sound will be. But we all know this, so why are we always overlooking it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 [quote name='spacey' timestamp='1417514360' post='2621076'] ... They always start, we prefer a DI, I bet you do, over done, raw sound of the bass, same sound as everyone else gets every gig, job done, shut up your just the bass player... ... [/quote] That was covered earlier. If you're that concerned about your tone you need to invest in a speaker simulator. The soundman can take that as his DI and everyone will be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 [quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1417514144' post='2621070'] Speaking personally, I've had great mixed sound as long as it's my amp that's DI'd, and not a DI feed from before my amp. Having my cab miked doesn't add much but then I don't have vintage tone anyway. [/quote]which is why I always make sure my effects pedal (which is always the same setting, apart from Ace of Spades lol) is before the DI box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I dont need to do anything, the sound guy does what I say and puts a Mic on the cab if I ask for one. I am the artiste he is the servant hired to do a job . Some irony in there, but you get the jist... On the other hand, it must be the climate change in the air, because this poor bass sound is only a new thing, any gig veteran will soon tell you back in the 80's 90's and even 2000's the bass sound was never an issue, the issue is more laziness and excuses than room dynamics. This was emphasised watching Mani from Roses out front sound checking, he made that sound guy get his sound, it took some doing and at one point it looked like thay might have to find a new sound guy as he started preaching about bits of paper proving he was an expert, but eventually, using a bass drum Mic and not a DI and lots of huffing and blowing, crack, out came his classic unmistakable bass sound from the PA. Let me tell ya, you would have paid just to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverinebass Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 [quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1417489508' post='2620960'] A comment on previous page about 'you're sticking a mic on this' would go down like lead balloon with me (and most engineers -good and bad- that I know) because it's not always the best option. Does the musicain know and understand the room? Do they know what the system is capable of? Do they know how to mix their own group? Probably a 'no' on all counts so being so arrogant as to assume they know best simply shows the short sightedness of some and the root of many problem. [/quote] A perfectly reasonable point. However, from my own experience, I'll ask what the situation is and will always be met with a "DI before amp" reply which will be repeated ad infinitum regardless of what's happening/size of venue/size of stage/number of band members/style of music. It's infallable. If I'm playing a 4 string in a clean sound I'll go as far as to taking a post EQ DI and generally that sounds fine, but anything with delays or modulations then that's not always possible nor does it quite sound right all the time. One engineer once tried to say to me (this isn't made up - really!!) "If you give me your effects I'll run it into the desk once I have your bass DI." Meaning, he'd control my Pod from the desk. Really? I was amazed, but then again maybe he was a mind reader. This has been great fun when I went through a particular phase of using the bass more like a synth with all sorts of effects going on to try and explain why I didn't want a DI. If I'm using a 12 or an 8 the cab has to be mic'd as I'm using crossovers and signal splitting to get a sound with the lows clean and the treble distorted a bit as an example. Generally from experience the post fx DI doesn't sound as good, but it depends. I enjoyed using a pod when the engineer knew how to plug it in but mostly I got the "I'm not putting that through the PA, it'll blow it up with that - give me your DI. We don't put bass straight into the PA" nonsense I described earlier. On the other hand when they started doing frequency pans on me/muting my playing in the stage monitors that was when I realised getting an amp was probably a bit better for my sanity as at least I'd get to hear myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of tone deaf and incapable fools out there and that coupled with a poor attitude, you're onto a loser. I too have been on the recieving end of this and fully appreciate the frustrations associated with it. Personally, I'll take a DI most of the time because I can make it work with everything else. Occasionally a mic will work (as well or instead), especially with sounds like Alan Davey but what it comes down to is appropriate use of EQ and compression -where needed- making the bass sit where it should (and it's not the same in every group / mix) irrespective of whether the source is a flat DI, an affected post-eq DI, a dynamicmic or a combination of all three. And never have I refused to plug someones bass in for fear of it 'blowing my system up' as it is appropriatley setup. I choose a DI nearly every time because it's what works best most of the time on my stage with my system in my room. Nothing to do with laziness, prejudice or whatever, I always do my best to achive the best result possible for everyone equally including the bass player. I would like to think 99% of the people that I've mixed would be happy with the result I helped them achieve and if they're not, I'm happy for them to speak up as I take my work and professional pride very seriously. Using a POD, Sansamp or whatever isn't a problem on my watch, we did Clawfinger about ten years ago and they used POD's exclusively for both bass and guitar and it was truly monsterous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrismanbass Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1417521521' post='2621230'] I enjoyed using a pod when the engineer knew how to plug it in but mostly I got the "I'm not putting that through the PA, it'll blow it up with that [/quote] unfortunately a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. in all walks of life people will repeat information that they believe to be true "because someone told me once" theres a lot of half truths floating about in the mystical world of pa systems with people who think they know what they're talking about, but when you press them it turns out they know pretty much nothing. first myth is that bass will somehow kill a pa system...... total rubbish!!! unless your doing something wrong i.e cliping preamps (which you would break a pa system even with just vocals) then bass is no different to any other instrument and can easily be handled by most pa systems right down to your little pub system that you take down the dog and duck on a friday night. it probably won't sound as good through your little vocal system compared to your amp, because your not going to reproduce the heavy lows that your amp will because bass cabs are tuned to reproduce the sound of a bass whereas pa speakers are not you don't need a crossover! you don't need a bass bin! i know i do it very often putting full band through a yamaha mixer and a couple of active JBL 15's with no sub and if you know what you are doing you can make that pa system sing! sorry for the rant gents but its one thing that really bugs me i'm off to gather up my toys now and have a lie down as you were Edited December 2, 2014 by Chrismanbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh971 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 The issue is definitely not with modern gear. As has previously been said most modern line array systems are very well engineered to create an even response throughout the whole range with no frequency gaps. The issue, I believe, is with the modern trend of EQuing the mids out of the bass. It's got nothing to do with micing vs DIing. A sound man could cut all the mids out of a miced signal as well as he could with a DI'd signal. Most digital desks have compressors and decent EQs on every channel so the tools are there. Also the sound guy can hear the big picture. What sounds good for you on stage is possibly not what would sound good coming out front. Some sound guys are idiots but lots are great, your best bet is to work with them. At the end of the day they have the final say to how you sound out front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It depends who's paying the sound man (or woman). If the client's not happy with the sound or setup, the sound person needs to sort it (notwithstanding elements beyond his / her control). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Can someone please explain how clipping a preamp can destroy an amplification system? It's how every fuzz and distortion unit works. Why don't they cause damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 It's not the act of clipping that destroys the preamps it's the excess power that is causing the clipping that destroys them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Apparently the Who in Leeds, bass out front, non existent dull rumble, yet they played some solos by the ox on the video screen and the recorded bass sounded awesome from the PA . Now I am confused ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1417608045' post='2622134'] It's not the act of clipping that destroys the preamps it's the excess power that is causing the clipping that destroys them. [/quote] Please explain further. IIRC distortion devices work by boosting the signal in one part of the device so that they get clipped further down the signal path. Surely this is just the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 There are a few small venues around me and they seem to echo some of what's being said here. Extremely loud bass drum, guitars quiet unless you're hearing them from the stage, and vocals that are just muddy. I'm not sure engineers are cutting the mids from the bass, I think the problem might be that they're NOT cutting the mids from the kick drum, and turning it up so loud that it masks the definition of the bass. The last gig I did (on drums, 200 capacity venue, big modern PA), all I could hear was bass drum, some subs from the bass guitar, and some muffled vocals. On stage they had the floor tom mic so loud it was resonating so there was a constant low end rumble throughout. I asked them to take all drums out of the monitors, but he said there wasn't any. Apparently it was that loud FOH! When I used to gig on bass, I would give a DI feed, and ask for a mic as well, and for the mic to be high passed. Most engineers were fine with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 All the bass being lost in an overly predominant kick drum is the bane of many gigs. I once posted a complaint about this on the Thunder website (Chris Childs is one of my fave players) they were not receptive to my gripe and got very defensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1417610757' post='2622177'] Please explain further. IIRC distortion devices work by boosting the signal in one part of the device so that they get clipped further down the signal path. Surely this is just the same? [/quote] Yes, I often overdrive the pre-amps on my desk to get a bit of distortion. I wouldn't advise it in a live situation as it'd cut down on your headroom before feedback, but I don't see why it would damage anything I guess if you distorted a signal so much that it was practically a square wave it might blow an under powered power amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1417611367' post='2622186'] All the bass being lost in an overly predominant kick drum is the bane of many gigs. I once posted a complaint about this on the Thunder website (Chris Childs is one of my fave players) they were not receptive to my gripe and got very defensive. [/quote] I've got no problem with a loud kick drum, it's just that if you have it that loud, you can cut everything out of the kick between 100Hz and 1Khz, and this will free up loads of space for the bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IzzyT2807 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 that has always been the problem with metallica .. never hear the bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1417610757' post='2622177'] Please explain further. IIRC distortion devices work by boosting the signal in one part of the device so that they get clipped further down the signal path. Surely this is just the same? [/quote] Mic Pre amps and line level inputs use OP-amps and are expecting a specific voltage and the feedback gain is designed differently. OP-amp distortion does not sound like and is not the the same as transistor or tube distortion which compresses before you get to full distortion. OP-amps just suddenly saturate and make a horrible screeching noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1417614637' post='2622236'] Mic Pre amps and line level inputs use OP-amps and are expecting a specific voltage and the feedback gain is designed differently. OP-amp distortion does not sound like and is not the the same as transistor or tube distortion which compresses before you get to full distortion. OP-amps just suddenly saturate and make a horrible screeching noise. [/quote] But AFAICS and OP-amp is just an IC made of transistors resistors and capacitors, so overloading it is just going to produce the same kind of clipping as you would get with a discrete component circuit. Still don't see how feeding it too large an input signal can damage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1417514391' post='2621079'] As posted several times, it's not the other instruments making it an inaudible mush it's the echo from the bass itself. [/quote] So why is it when I go to the arena gigs in those parts of the show where the bass/floor toms drop out of the mix I can hear the bass OK but when they start up again it disappears? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1417514391' post='2621079'] It's very simple. Bass is not absorbed by people. It effectively washes over them and bounces round the venue. The bigger the venue, the longer the reverberation time for bass. Soft objects like seats and people absorb higher frequencies. The louder you make the bass the more it will reverberate around the room. As posted several times, it's not the other instruments making it an inaudible mush it's the echo from the bass itself. Sit near the front you get more direct sound which has less of the reverberation and more of the high frequencies which define the note. [/quote] so how come we have no trouble hearing the bass drum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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