Bass mix in live concerts.... Disappointing?

[TimR]

You both missed the point about the mid/treble frequencies being cut to make way for the other more important frequency components?

[cheddatom]

A kick drum can be well "defined" in the low mids, in fact it normally is, despite the problems regarding reverberation in the lower frequencies. Therefore, it stands to reason that if you cut these frequencies from the kick drum, and leave them on bass guitar, you'll be able to hear the bass guitar more clearly.

That's my POV anyway. At the local gigs I go to, the soundman has a big boost on the kick at 10KHz and no cuts, then turns up the kick so loud that almost everything else is inaudible. It's much easier to get that "click" by cutting the low mids on the kick

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1417619196' post='2622304']
You both missed the point about the mid/treble frequencies being cut to make way for the other more important frequency components?
[/quote]there's nothing more important than hearing the bass seriously, I know I'm biased but the most enjoyable gigs I go to is when the bass is prominent, a recent Stranglers tribute being a case in point, I went up to the sound guy, who I know, and said "The bass needs to be this loud at all gigs", if you've got a nice audible bass it adds so much definition to the overall sound

[TimR]

Depends if you want the 'click' or the 'thump'.

I went to a small gig a few months age where the bass guitar was really well mixed and defined. However, by the end of the evening it was very tiring to listen to as my ears became fatigued.

Of course this would happen to the bass drum too.

I think we have to be careful.

[cheddatom]

I always wear earplugs as I find any mix fatiguing at gig volume

[spectoremg]

I saw a thread somewhere else about Geddy's Wal sound - no-one had a good word for it.

[drTStingray]

IMHO it's all to do with mixing - and it's not just live - I've heard radio and TV shows with bass necessary songs like Good Times where the bass is mixed far too low. Seeing Jamiroquy and Level 42 fairly recently with badly mixed bass sound (just far too low and not prominent) I came to the conclusion it's just poor engineering.

This view was confirmed when I had a couple of issues myself on gigs where the bass drum - in fact the whole kit, was mixed far too loud, and he bass guitar too low. The usual trick is to overlook the importance of mids and to overboost sub frequencies - but if the bass guitar is too low in the mix then the job it does (linking rhythm and harmony) is lost - in dance music it's even more important.

I think things are improving as I've recently seen/heard decently mixed bass on Strictly Come Dancing (where it had all but disappeared in recent months), radio 2, Later with Jools Holland (where I've recently heard his band itself with a decent sound). Was in Cafe Rouge last night and I noticed how prominent the bass was in the background music - heard the whole bass line in Move on Up by the Isley Brothers for the first time in ages - and Hard to Handle (the proper one that no covers band play - Wilson Pickett?) - even Mrs drT noticed!!!

Maybe people have read this thread!! Anyway I for one am hopeful that the days of attempting to make everything have 60s style inaudible or indistinct/inarticulate bass are over. Some of these guys teaching have a lot to answer for as do some popular producers of the last ten years or so........... with notable exceptions - Trevor Horn normally has great bass sound on his productions - I think we re talking the Ronsons of this world and others possibly...... the X factor stuff notably - anyone hear their version of Heroes - with inaudible bass and no riff. A bit like doing Sunshine of your Love without the riff - appalling!!

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1417959058' post='2625413']
and Hard to Handle (the proper one that no covers band play - Wilson Pickett?
[/quote]

Otis Reading

[Japhet]

Wonder why Trevor Horn gets a good bass sound in his mixes? Hmmmm.............

[mcnach]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1417489508' post='2620960']We're all bass players on this forum covering all styles, shapes and sizes [b]but so many complain about this subject,[/b] it really gets my goat. I've been a pro engineer for nearly 15 years [...] [/quote]

... maybe you could start by acknowledging that there MAY be something wrong for many, after all. Or do you think they complain because they really like complaining?

when someone starts quoting their experience/credentials as a way to "impress" and attempt to negate other people's experiences, that's a major turn off. You may be a great sound engineer, but I hope I don't have to work with you, by the way you talk (and I get along famously with 99.9% of them - mutual respect is the key and you sound jaded and lacking in respect... but maybe it was just a bad day ).

[Beer of the Bass]

There's a smallish festival I've been going to for a number of years; audience of maybe three thousand, fairly large main stage. The music tends to include folk-based things, some world music outfits and a fair bit of reggae but very little rock. Because it's a remote site down a long access road, most bassists use the rented gear on stage. They hire in a decent system and sound guys each year but the quality of the bass sound has been variable to say the least. Many years it's been the sort of indistinct mush complained about in this thread.
One year the bass sounded better than usual, not overwhelming in the lows, plenty of mids and nice definition. As it happens, the supplied backline that year was an SVT and 8x10" with a mic in front of it. I have no idea whether that was the root of the better bass sound or just a indicator that they had a different and more sympathetic sound team than in other years! I'm prepared to accept that mic-ing cabs isn't always the solution, but I wonder if it tends to correlate with better sound simply because it's a sign that the sound guy is paying some attention to the band.

[cheddatom]

There are some great sound guys around, but it seems to me, it's one job where you don't HAVE to be good, especially if you stick to smaller/local gigs.

There's a local guy who gets loads of work round here and he just doesn't know what he's doing. He's really bad, but I've come across plenty of sub-par sound men too. The impression I get is that they've been running their gigs way too loud for years, which has f***ed their hearing, which leads to bad mixes.

I'm not making any generalisations about sound men, and I wouldn't claim to know that X% are good and Y% are crap, but, bad sound men do seem pretty common, at least around here.

[spacey]

The worst sound guys I know all fit one generic group.
All got bits of paper from colleges and none play any type of instrument in a band.
To me that is like having a teetotal wine maker, or a car designer who can not drive.
The couple I know who have their own bands always nail it and nail it very easily as well in any venue.

One I know was asked to go to Sheffield where a band had had atrocious mixes through the line array gear.
He took his own Graphics and inserted them desk end and it sounded like pure CD mix.
Next band on, he put it all back and it sounded like Mud with the regular guy on.

[mcnach]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418037416' post='2626113']
The worst sound guys I know all fit one generic group.
All got bits of paper from colleges and none play any type of instrument in a band.
To me that is like having a teetotal wine maker, or a car designer who can not drive.
[/quote]

An electric guitar maker who cannot play... oooops!

[TimR]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1418036109' post='2626096']
...
As it happens, the supplied backline that year was an SVT and 8x10" with a mic in front of it. I have no idea whether that was the root of the better bass sound or just a indicator that they had a different and more sympathetic sound team than in other years!
...
[/quote]

My guess is the soundman was a bass player.

Who has that kind of gear lying around for backline?

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1418036109' post='2626096']
There's a smallish festival I've been going to for a number of years; audience of maybe three thousand, fairly large main stage. The music tends to include folk-based things, some world music outfits and a fair bit of reggae but very little rock. Because it's a remote site down a long access road, most bassists use the rented gear on stage. They hire in a decent system and sound guys each year but the quality of the bass sound has been variable to say the least. Many years it's been the sort of indistinct mush complained about in this thread.
One year the bass sounded better than usual, not overwhelming in the lows, plenty of mids and nice definition. As it happens, the supplied backline that year was an SVT and 8x10" with a mic in front of it. I have no idea whether that was the root of the better bass sound or just a indicator that they had a different and more sympathetic sound team than in other years! I'm prepared to accept that mic-ing cabs isn't always the solution, but I wonder if it tends to correlate with better sound simply because it's a sign that the sound guy is paying some attention to the band.
[/quote]
I play a very small festival every year, they use the yamaha mixer/amp for vocals/keyboards and mic up the guitar, snare and bass drum but not the bass, just use the back line, and every year the bass sound is music to my ears, mind you the sound on stage is crap

[KevB]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1417611367' post='2622186']
All the bass being lost in an overly predominant kick drum is the bane of many gigs. I once posted a complaint about this on the Thunder website (Chris Childs is one of my fave players) they were not receptive to my gripe and got very defensive.
[/quote]

Saw Chris playing with Tyketto recently (admittedly in a small venue) and they didn't overdo Michael Clayton's drum sound so you could hear Chris's playing just fine. So it can be done in the right room with the right engineer.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1418038462' post='2626128']
My guess is the soundman was a bass player.

Who has that kind of gear lying around for backline?
[/quote]

It could well be that. In which case, it might have less to do with the backline and more to do with him being perceptive about the sound each band were going for.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Beer of the Bass

[TimR]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1418041811' post='2626177']


It could well be that. In which case, it might have less to do with the backline and more to do with him being perceptive about the sound each band were going for.
[/quote]

There's a reason a lot of bass players make very good producers.

[BigRedX]

I think that a fair portion of the blame can be laid at a lot of "modern" bands and their choices for individual instrument sounds and arrangements, on a recording it might be possible to fine tune each into its own sonic space but live in an unpredictable acoustic environment it can be near impossible.

I was in London at the weekend to see a couple of gigs. Firstly HIM and Fields Of The Nephilim at Shepherds Bush. Fields Of The Nephilim had rested the temptation to "update" their songs and consequently the chiming 80s goth guitars and the bass were perfectly separated and even Carl McCoy's lower range vocals were still distinct and audible. Compare that with HIM where the mix was drums, vocals, and then everything else as a low-mid down-tuned mush which were joined by any of the vocals not sung in the upper register. When the instruments played on their own (intros, break downs etc.) each was clearly audible. However all together it was just a tuneless mess and when the drums were going at full tilt they might as well have not even been there. There seemed to be so much bottom end on the basic sounds coming from the amps on stage for each instrument that it was unsurprising that the FoH sound was so undefined. The end result was that most of the songs were all but unrecognisable until the vocals started.

Compare and contrast with the following night with The Human League at Hammersmith. Vocals were crystal-clear and all the other instruments mixed perfectly. Maybe when the majority of the sounds are synthesised it's easier to look at the overall arrangement and mix and tweak each into its own space, but IME a good amp and desk channel has just as much control, so it should still be possible with a more "traditional" band line-up.

Maybe also now that PA systems are so much more capable than they were 25 years ago, we should be looking at mixing live music in a different way. Earlier this year the Terrortones did a small tour supporting German Rockabilly band Boppin' B. Their method of sound checking was an eye-opener to say the least. Rather than start with the drums and build up from there, they got the vocals loud and clear both on-stage and FoH and then mixed the other instruments underneath. I saw then use this method at three very different venues and they sounded great at all of them.

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1418044753' post='2626215']
...
Their method of sound checking was an eye-opener to say the least. Rather than start with the drums and build up from there, they got the vocals loud and clear both on-stage and FoH and then mixed the other instruments underneath. I saw then use this method at three very different venues and they sounded great at all of them.
[/quote]

I used to do this with our function band. We used to get complimented on the sound being the 'right' volume.

It forces the drummer to think about his volume because if he plays too loudly he can't hear the vocals (or anything else!)

Edited December 8, 2014 by TimR

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1418044753' post='2626215']
I think that a fair portion of the blame can be laid at a lot of "modern" bands and their choices for individual instrument sounds and arrangements...
[/quote]

Yes, I think you have a good point, but when he's faced with this situation, isn't it down to the sound man to EQ each instrument? If the guitars have too much in the low-mids then this should be cut, surely?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1418047440' post='2626250']
Yes, I think you have a good point, but when he's faced with this situation, isn't it down to the sound man to EQ each instrument? If the guitars have too much in the low-mids then this should be cut, surely?
[/quote]

You would think. However from what I could hear coming out of the amps on-stage (I was right down at the front) by the time all the low-mids had been cut you'd have been left with the sound of a gnat in a jam jar...

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1418049557' post='2626275']
You would think. However from what I could hear coming out of the amps on-stage (I was right down at the front) by the time all the low-mids had been cut you'd have been left with the sound of a gnat in a jam jar...
[/quote]

ahhh, yes, I think I've heard that sound :-/

[ezbass]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1418039638' post='2626141']


Saw Chris playing with Tyketto recently (admittedly in a small venue) and they didn't overdo Michael Clayton's drum sound so you could hear Chris's playing just fine. So it can be done in the right room with the right engineer.
[/quote]Nice! This just inspired me to put my Tyketto CD on, however, I don't seem to be able to find it! Please don't let it have fallen victim to a clear out!!

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