Bass mix in live concerts.... Disappointing?

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1418031366' post='2626045']
... maybe you could start by acknowledging that there MAY be something wrong for many, after all. Or do you think they complain because they really like complaining?

when someone starts quoting their experience/credentials as a way to "impress" and attempt to negate other people's experiences, that's a major turn off. You may be a great sound engineer, but I hope I don't have to work with you, by the way you talk (and I get along famously with 99.9% of them - mutual respect is the key and you sound jaded and lacking in respect... but maybe it was just a bad day ).
[/quote]

I think was having a particular rough day and having seen a number of 'soundmen bashing' threads on here lately it pushed me over the edge so I bit.

Please understand that I'm not jaded, I love my job and if it ever gets to the point where I'm not able to do it because of a shift in attitude then I'll call it a day. I wasn't attempting to impress with my experiences nor was I attempting to throw my weight around, I was trying to suggest that maybe some of the ideas suggested were sometimes more of a perception thing rather than being based in fact.

I hope we do cross paths so you can see, I really was having a bad day..

[mcnach]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1418091959' post='2626822']
I think was having a particular rough day and having seen a number of 'soundmen bashing' threads on here lately it pushed me over the edge so I bit.

Please understand that I'm not jaded, I love my job and if it ever gets to the point where I'm not able to do it because of a shift in attitude then I'll call it a day. I wasn't attempting to impress with my experiences nor was I attempting to throw my weight around, I was trying to suggest that maybe some of the ideas suggested were sometimes more of a perception thing rather than being based in fact.

I hope we do cross paths so you can see, I really was having a bad day..
[/quote]


actually, I was in a bad mood myself so I probably over-reacted too...
Glad that you are possibly one of the "good ones" who really care about sound. I really do believe that some guys (at the smaller venues) just end up at the desk because it's a way to get a few extra quid and don't really understand, or care to understand, what makes for a good sound in a room. We need more passionate people!

[cheddatom]

So many times I've seen a singer on stage, singing in to a mic, but totally inaudible. I turn to look at the soundman, and he's playing with his phone, or grabbing a drink from the bar. In what other profession would you get away with that?

[crez5150]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1418118667' post='2626919']
So many times I've seen a singer on stage, singing in to a mic, but totally inaudible. I turn to look at the soundman, and he's playing with his phone, or grabbing a drink from the bar. In what other profession would you get away with that?
[/quote]

[cheddatom]

Lol, well played

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1418116708' post='2626896']
actually, I was in a bad mood myself so I probably over-reacted too...
Glad that you are possibly one of the "good ones" who really care about sound. I really do believe that some guys (at the smaller venues) just end up at the desk because it's a way to get a few extra quid and don't really understand, or care to understand, what makes for a good sound in a room. We need more passionate people!


[/quote]

Hey man, it's all good.. I agree, I've seen plenty behind (or not!) a console and they don't even know what instrument is plugged into what channel let alone how to put it together. Sad but true, my missus went to see a group I often mix and occasionally dep bass for accross town and simply left as the young man attempting to mix was so far out of his depth that all was lost..

And if cheddatom is who I suspect he is, I'd like to think he'd vouch for my integrity as an engineer..

[cheddatom]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1418123140' post='2627000']
And if cheddatom is who I suspect he is, I'd like to think he'd vouch for my integrity as an engineer..
[/quote]

Yo Matt, I didn't know you were on here! Yes, you are ace... I still wear ear plugs though

[VTypeV4]

Hey Tom, thanks!

[gapiro]

[quote name='lowendgalore' timestamp='1416862565' post='2614523']
Responding to the few that said about walking around a venue to check the sound - yes if im on a small gig and we are maybe doing sound ourselves i will do this, and im usually pretty happy with where we get things sitting.

Generally speaking, the smaller gigs where the band do they sound themselves i usually find the bass experience fairly good generally!

Its big gigs/proffesional gigs 1000+ to arena tours that disapoint me.

Theres one company that when i look and ask them about some of there eq-ing they boost nothing, they only take out... So i might i ask whell hows my bass sitting guys and they will say something like "took out 62hz, it was a bit heavy there" and im like ahhh:(

thats where id be wanting them to boost it;) haha


Cool to hear your thoughts!
[/quote]

That is actually not necessarily a bad thing - it is one school of thought because boosting is a) more prone to clipping introducing artifical sound - you can remove but can't add.


Bruno Mars I thought the bass sound was good, and Oddly, McBusted, with 2 bassists sounded pretty fine (saw them in nottingham, took the first song to get the sound right but sounded good)

[pajhartley]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1417124819' post='2617370']
Recent middle size concert in Cardiff (3-5000 I guess). All I can say is that if I was the artist concerned I would have been mighty disappointed with the sound. Immense (too much) bass and kick drum, sufficient to make balcony shake, just an indistinct thump. - vocals harsh when singer at full tilt. All just too loud. Did not do the artist justice. Has made me think though - no need for anything more than a cheap bass because any subtlety will be lost if this is the foh mix that is in vogue. Band played well, plenty of energy, very tight, would have been outstanding gig with good mix. The support act - vocals & two guitars had their sound massacred. How hard is it to mix two vocals, one electric guitar and one acoustic?
[/quote]

No more than a cheap bass required? I'd agree absolutely. I've played hundreds of gigs, from pubs to outside festivals, using anything from a Squier Precision to a Vigier Passion - and out front there is very little, if any, difference, IMO. On stage it'll sound very different, but not out front. I actually used the Squier on a tour, just to see if it made any difference! And no, the sound guys just take your DI & make it sit somewhere "down below", with none of the consistency, subtlety or definition that we spend hours practicing. Actually you can get a better sound in the smaller gigs as you're more in control.

[TimR]

At some point you realise why you're gigging.

I'm guessing that the awesome bass tone is probably not one of the top reasons your band has been asked to play, or the reason why people are coming to see you.

Just saying...

[spectoremg]

Listening to the Led Zep O2 cd, it would seem that studio mix engineers have caught the bug too; kick drum massive, bass pedals massive, bass guitar (above an A-ish) disappears. Also watching Strictly on the telly; bass player using what seems to be an NS upright; anything way down sounds great but again anything else isn't there.

Edited December 15, 2014 by spectoremg

[PaulWarning]

we had a gig on Friday, just a small pub gig using PA for vocals, backline and unmiced drums, A guy came to see us who'd only been once before, which was to the support for Vice Squad I mentioned earlier,
[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1417255784' post='2618558']
did a gig last night at a small venue supporting Vice Squad and sound wasn't good, muddy, indistinct vocals and something was booming, my partner reckoned it was my bass but but on parts of songs where I played on my own it was on the trebley side, at least 2 people went up to the sound man to tell him but it didn't seem to make any difference and Vice Squads bass sound was a muddy mushy mess (stingray with a pick)
[/quote]
he couldn't believe how much better/clearer we sounded, his question which is often asked when using a full PA "Why did they have to have it so bloody loud before?"

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1418140975' post='2627284']
At some point you realise why you're gigging.

I'm guessing that the awesome bass tone is probably not one of the top reasons your band has been asked to play, or the reason why people are coming to see you.

Just saying...
[/quote]

But as a sum of parts it is pretty important. It is pleasing when the audience tell you that the sound was very good..could hear everything etc etc .. and since I tape most of the gigs, I get a pretty good idea back as well.

[Norris]

We had Deacon Blue as our Xmas party entertainment (I work for Next - big party!). I was standing in front of the desk for the four or five songs I could bear. The bass player may as well have stayed at home - and the guitarist for that matter. Kick, kick, kick was all you could hear at the bottom end. Drums dead loud, quite a bit of backing track and the vocals. Everything else might have been muted for all I know

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1418637451' post='2631810']


But as a sum of parts it is pretty important. It is pleasing when the audience tell you that the sound was very good..could hear everything etc etc .. and since I tape most of the gigs, I get a pretty good idea back as well.
[/quote]

It's the sum of the parts that is important not the individual sound. We see countless threads about people who get their sound at home but can't replicate it in the practice room. Extend this further from getting it right in a practice room (where the acoustics are still fairly controllable) to a pub gig and you face very similar problems.

[JTUK]

But the core sound of all instruments is what helps the overall sound mix so
it helps if you know what you are doing, what you can work with and where you need to get to...
If you don't have a good band mix on stage..and sometimes that is THE mix..you have no hope of
it magically fixing itself elsewhere...

[72deluxe]

I wonder if it is related to the live equipment used? You will notice in larger venues that they are using line arrays - those speakers hung from the ceiling that have the bottom bunch curved down towards the audience. These are incredibly directional speakers, so if you're somewhere out of the "beam" of the speaker, you'll hear very little. For example, on a balcony perpendicular by the speaker, they have a ~120 (?) degree horizontal range so you'll hear nothing right next to it other than mush - had the speaker been able to put out audio 180 degrees from the front of the speaker, you'd be fine. But no speakers do that so don't sit on the balcony by the stage! You can see the band but you'll hear rubbish (or reflections from the rest of the room)

Elsewhere in the room (such as on the floor) you may be getting the sound from one speaker on the left but then get the sound from the other speaker on the right slightly afterwards, leading to phase problems and audible mush. Even vertically from one line array you are fighting the same signal from two speakers in the array (sound from one speaker, then sound from the speaker above it), as they'll hit you at different times depending on where you're sat.

They are designed so that you don't need a "wall" of speakers (like The Grateful Dead) and so they can fill an arena with sound and don't deafen the people at the front with the volume needed to reach the people at the back.
With large venues or big outdoor gigs they may have arrays hung further back with a delay on them so that the sound from them hits you at the same time as the sound from the arrays at the front. Your brain will be fooled into thinking that the sound came from where the first sound came from, so you consciously believe that the sound is from the stage.

Smaller venues (like dance clubs) don't have this problem because they are small - they can use fullrange speakers and aim them at people's heads by hanging them above the dancefloor. There's no audio fighting with other audio so you get clarity. But they obviously don't work in big venues because the people at the front will have concussion from the audio, and the people at the back will be complaining that it's quiet and that there's no treble ("It's a bit muddy isn't it?")

In addition to the line arrays (which put out midrange and treble and perhaps some bass) they will put subwoofers, perhaps in front of the stage or under the line arrays. As you can't really perceive where bass is coming from, they can get away putting them pretty much anywhere haha. They run the live audio through crossovers to send bass to the bass speakers, midrange to midrange speakers, treble to tweeters etc.

The sound engineer will take the sound from the mixing engineer and correct it for deficiencies in the room (some rooms sound rubbish and audio sounds honky) as well as "deficiencies" / idiosyncrasies in the live speakers. It may be worth remembering that some venues do not have their own PA or live system (like the Wolverhampton Civic, which has the audio properties of a school gym), so when a band plays the sound crew needs to:
1. Hang the speakers
2. Aim them correctly (rotation in the Z axis, not just X and Y)
3. Ensure each speaker is correctly aligned with other speakers in the array
4. Do burst sounds (pink noise) and use a sensitive microphone to work out the problems in the room
5. Correct problems in the room using filters
6. Go to step 2 and repeat until happy
7. Hope that the audience ("big bags of sound-absorbing water") don't absorb too much treble and make the sound "dull".

And that's all in addition to setting up the band, getting an onstage engineer with his own mixer so that each band has their own monitor feed (the monitor engineer), getting the mixing engineer happy and audio fed to him! The mixing engineer has the difficult job of mixing drums live too. Think of all the bass rumble that microphones can pick up (probably best to put a highpass on them to cut it out) and then the task of getting a good bass drum sound without picking up all the bass. That's why many bands will have cabinets miked up OFF STAGE with dummy cabs on stage, in-ear monitors so they can hear what they're playing but only audio being played out of the live rig. The only sound you'll hear on stage is drums.

So live sound is far more than turning up and plugging in amps and hoping the sound will fill the room. The bass sound in a venue is highly dependent on where you're sat, how much you turn your head etc. If you're stood up you'll hear it better because you'll have more body surface in contact with the audio - you hear bass with your body too, not just your ears.

Apologies for the long post, but I find it interesting....

EDIT: I forgot to say: of course, if the bass player has a rubbish bass sound, no amount of filtering will make it good. I think the 80s slap sound is the worst - thump and click with no midrange or definition so live you'll just hear thumps and clicks and will get no idea of what actual note the bass is playing.

EDIT AGAIN: Reading through some of the earlier responses again and forgot to mention how informative they were. Looks like small venues are the way to go.

And I could be wrong about some of this stuff, of course. Actually, I probably AM wrong so PLEASE correct me on any part of it! Corrections more than welcome!

Edited December 15, 2014 by 72deluxe

[72deluxe]

Does anyone know who the O2 CD was mixed by? The "How The West Was Won" CDs from the other year and Led Zep DVD from the same sort of time was done by Kevin Shirley, who has done a few Black Crowes albums, a couple of Dream Theater albums and Black Country Communion and California Breed.

He LOVES loud bass drums! I know Portnoy liked bass drums to sound like gunshots but even on The Black Crowes' "By Your Side" album the bass drum is deafeningly loud throughout the entire album.

On California Breed it sounds like there is a subbass added to it to make it stand out but as everything is compressed and limited to death on that album you get things getting lost (see if you can hear the snare drum when a guitar solo starts). The same happens with Black Country Communion where it sounds muddy on the first album (where's the treble?) and then proceeds in various ranges of muddiness (perhaps for an "authentic" 70s sound...?????)

If Kevin Shirley is responsible for this Led Zep O2 mix then that'll explain the square-wave bass drums. (BTW, I enjoy those albums he's mixed, just sometimes the bass drum is too loud for me).

Don't get me started on Geddy Lee's recent sound - the last album sounds like indistinct noise to me. Long live the compressor with maximum makeup gain fed into the hard limiter! BZZZZ!

[crez5150]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1418650243' post='2631964']

In addition to the line arrays (which put out midrange and treble and perhaps some bass) they will put subwoofers, perhaps in front of the stage or under the line arrays. As you can't really perceive where bass is coming from, they can get away putting them pretty much anywhere haha.

[/quote]

Most Subs used in conjunction with Line array systems have some sort of polar pattern.... most tour companies are using subs in Cardioid configs as to keep the majority of the bass within the grouping of the audience rather than just letting it wander. Even in smaller venues.

[gelfin]

U2 line arrays at Millenium Stadium, Cardif. Side view, Sound was excellent

[URL=http://s970.photobucket.com/user/gelfin5959/media/U27_zps9dcd3611.jpg.html][IMG]http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae181/gelfin5959/U27_zps9dcd3611.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[TimR]

No roof.

[gelfin]

No the top of their set was sticking out the top

[grandad]

The best live mix I remember was June 2006 at Broadcasting House to see Cat Stevens record a Radio 2 live show. Recording was in the booth at the back & FOH was mixed at the middle rear of the theatre. I sat just to the right of the engineer watching him make suprisingly few adjustments throughout the hour. The lighting was also top notch. The theatre held about 200 & I can say the sound was just perfect, vocals & instruments, acoustic guitar, electric, bass, piano, & percussion.

Recently I saw Joe Brown at the Lichfield Garrick & there also, the finals for the best UK tribute band. Both times the sound was excellent. The engineer who must have been as busy as hell on the tribute night did a great job. The theatre seats 562 so quite small.

My last big venue concert was Birmingham NIA to see Bob Dylan. I lasted less than 1 hour before walking out to rest my ears.

Symphony Hall next door is superb, I think one of the best venues in the country. Saw Hank Marvin there.

Some venues must be an engineers nightmare to get right. Throughout my amateur experience I found some stages impossible to lose the boominess. Other venues presented no problems. Textbook sound engineering is a fascinating subject but I think the practical experience is where you gain confidence & we all have to start somewhere.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1418769299' post='2633281']
No roof.
[/quote]

And a modern stadium that will have factored in live sound/gigs being part of
its income so would probably have engineered it to a degree.
The old Wembley had a crowd 'roar'...which was great for football as the atmosphere
was very good, but it was also a dustbin ( which helped achieve the 'roar' ) and the more modern stadiums
aren't so closed in...and have less crowd sound.
One doesn't compliment the other ..