For all you Jazz'ers out there

[gypsyjazzer]

Hi Guys

Thought you'd might like this---what a trio!---watch out for the great Ray Brown---not forgetting Oscar & Herb!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=337hbXJD9vk

[bassace]

Thanks for a great clip, GJ. Nice solo from Ray demonstrating how to build on the tune within three choruses. And I bet he didn't have particularly 'friendly' strings in '58.

[fatback]

I can never hear enough of Oscar Peterson. I keep imagining what inside that massive brain of his might look like if you could see all the signals whizzing about.

If Jeeves ate fish, so his head bulged out at the back; what did OP eat?

[gypsyjazzer]

Hi bassace--yes-your probably right about not having 'friendly' strings '58. Anybody know what strings were on offer in those days?--probably gut? What a sound!
But as I have read a no. of times: 'It's all in the hands.' A friend who knew him said Ray Brown would sound like Ray Brown on any bass.

I read an interview in a jazz magazine given by Ray Brown and he mentions that when he was learning his 'craft' in the 1940's bass players then were brought up to play acoustically--even in big bands---to project and be heard--no amps etc.then. I'm all for that advice.

[sarah thomas]

Superb. I notice Ray Brown plays right at the end of the fingerboard - I've started having a go at this myself and get a much bigger sound. I've also got a huge blood blister on what was previously a workable callous.

[bassace]

[quote name='sarah thomas' timestamp='1417026486' post='2616349']
Superb. I notice Ray Brown plays right at the end of the fingerboard - I've started having a go at this myself and get a much bigger sound. I've also got a huge blood blister on what was previously a workable callous.
[/quote]

Stick at it, Sarah. It's the way to go!

[sarah thomas]

No pain no gain!

[The Jaywalker]

What you'll also noticefrom interviews etc, is that Ray used to get pretty mad with folks who looked at his early playing as "definitive" and put it on a pedestal. He was really against the "Guts-high action-play hard-acoustic is best" stuff. Bassists didnt have a choice back then, that's all.

[fatback]

Been watching some right hands lately myself and notice that Ray Brown seems to try and play as many of his notes as possible with his index finger, presumably for fat tone. Mingus is crazy that way; I don't know how he plays one-fingered so fast.

But it must be worth the effort. I wonder whether part of the 'end of fingerboard' thing isn't about keeping that finger vertical.

Edited December 3, 2014 by fatback

[Hector]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1417645547' post='2622727']
Been watching some right hands lately myself and notice that Ray Brown seems to try and play as many of his notes as possible with his index finger, presumably for fat tone. Mingus is crazy that way; I don't know how he plays one-fingered so fast.

But it must be worth the effort. I wonder whether part of the 'end of fingerboard' thing isn't about keeping that finger vertical.
[/quote]

I read a really interesting interview with the late great Dennis Irwin, where he spoke about being told not to use two fingers when walking by Betty Carter:

[size=4][i][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"Playing tempos and plucking the string with the index finger when walking. One night after a gig at Ronnie Scott's (in London) she says. "Listen, babe, it's getting' uneven." She played on her arm with her single digit. She said to look at these old pictures of Ray Brown, Pettiford, Mingus, even their solo stuff. Paul Chambers and LaFaro were the first cats to (solo or play with two fingers). "[/font][/i][/size]

[fatback]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1417691310' post='2623038']
I read a really interesting interview with the late great Dennis Irwin, where he spoke about being told not to use two fingers when walking by Betty Carter:

[size=4][i][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"Playing tempos and plucking the string with the index finger when walking. One night after a gig at Ronnie Scott's (in London) she says. "Listen, babe, it's getting' uneven." She played on her arm with her single digit. She said to look at these old pictures of Ray Brown, Pettiford, Mingus, even their solo stuff. Paul Chambers and LaFaro were the first cats to (solo or play with two fingers). "[/font][/i][/size]
[/quote]

This is interesting. I've always found my bass (cheapish hybrid) to give a way better tone one-fingered. Partly the meat and partly the tendency to dig in more one-fingered.

I raised my endpin a bit to try and get a better arco height and noticed my pizz tone was worse. I think when the bass was low, I used more finger.

Gotta say the principle of sounding better while doing less greatly appeals. Now if I could get the left hand down to one finger...

[The Jaywalker]

When the bass was lower, you likely had more arm weight in your pizz. It's never just about the fingers. Also, "dig in" is such a misnomer when it comes to RH technique. To quote Rufus Reid: "A lot of younger bassists are playing harder than they should, trying to get the humungous sound they hear on recordings. But if you play too hard the bass clams up - the sound gets squashed. You have to learn your instruments sweet spot; from the softest sound that projects to the loudest that doesnt sound nasty."
To be honest, if playing with two RH fingers is sounding uneven; then practice is the solution. Possibly instrument setup may help too. Definitely a better plan than accepting a bass lesson from a vocalist! (although to be fair, Betty was a pretty intimidating presence by all accounts)

[Hector]

I totally dig what you're saying - a great revelation for me was that I didn't have to pizz so effortfully to get a big sound (especially the E string). I wasn't such a fan of this:

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1417704243' post='2623247']
Definitely a better plan than accepting a bass lesson from a vocalist! (although to be fair, Betty was a pretty intimidating presence by all accounts)
[/quote]

Still has ears doesn't she?! Not to mention she had a long career with some great bassmen: Sam Jones, Dennis Irwin, Christian McBride, Dave Holland to name just a few. You might expect her to have picked up a thing or two about playing bass. I don't want to be confrontational about it, but it's not really that fair of you to belittle her opinion in that way.

There's no one size fits all solution to RH technique. Lots of players use a variety of techniques, and it depends on what suits the music. Someone like John Patitucci is a prime example: everything from one finger pizz to both fingers perpendicular to the strings like electric bass. It's about getting the notes out, and every player should have a few different styles of pizz available.

That said, it is commonly found to be easier to get a consistently good sound and feel with one finger. Perhaps that's why people like Oscar Pettiford, Ray Brown, Mingus and contemporaries used one finger, or perhaps it was a product of the sorts of setups at the time that made alternating two fingers tougher. There's also the fact that getting more meat on the string when you pizz can help to pull a bigger sound with a stronger fundamental.

[fatback]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1417707784' post='2623298']
There's also the fact that getting more meat on the string when you pizz can help to pull a bigger sound with a stronger fundamental.
[/quote]

Intuitively i feel this is what's going on. And by 'dig in' I don;t mean anything deliberate, more that the one finger with as much string contact as possible seems to naturally lead to the string being displaced more. And as I said, it seems to suit my bass. - not saying it will suit everybody.

It doesn't matter how good or careful my two finger technique is, I hear that with one full-meat finger the sound is waay superior. But maybe that's just me.

[The Jaywalker]

I'm not belittling Betty Carter in any way. I'm sure the sound WAS uneven and that's what she was hearing. What I'm saying is, she wasn't a bassist or bass pedagogue. She was a vocalist (one of the greatest!). Her technical opinion on how a bassist should play/improve is just that. It shouldn't be treated as in any way authoritative. Gawd knows there's enough strongly-held nonsensical opinions by non-bassists in the Jazz world about the rights and wrongs of playing bass! From memory, Dennis usually played with one finger, I think: maybe it was one of Betty's crazy tempos and he was trying to keep up 10 minutes in!

[Hector]

We're not singing from the same hymn sheet. In a way, I agree with your thinking that you need to take technical advice from people who are properly qualified. But here's my take:

Who do you play the bass for? Who's your audience? Past that, who pays your fee?

There are certain things expected of you as a bass player, and you gotta deliver them or you'll quickly find yourself playing alone or with schlubs. If you're not going to listen to anyone's opinion unless they've been playing the bass for a long time then you're going to miss a ton of useful advice/feedback from the people who are actually the ones you should be trying to please and the ones who may or may not hire you. There's a reason a lot of bass pedagogues say to record yourself playing as much as you can, because when you're playing you're often not in the best position to judge your own performance.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the observation from a singer (Betty Carter or not) that your time feel isn't even enough and that, based on pervious observations by that singer of other bass players who sound great, it's perhaps to do with two-finger technique rather than one finger. You might have to take some opinions with a pinch of salt of course, and you might have to take that thought to the shed and work out your own spin on it, but you better be thinking it over. To have a singer directly tell you what they're looking for in a bass accompanist, and advise how to get there is absolute gold! That's how jazz used to be done, these kind of apprenticeships, with more experienced players sharing wisdom on the stand, regardless of which instrument they played.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Hector

[Bilbo]

I think the two finger thing matters more useful when you are soloing, playing 'funky' bass or playing more active lines. If you are walking, even fast, one finger seems to help everything stay focus (imaging a drummer playing a fast ride pattern using two hands instead of one). THe way the sound develops after you pluck is an important part of the timbre and, if your second finger is already in place, it is going to have an effect. I use one and two finger techniques depending on the line but, for a walking bassline, it is mostly one finger.

Try playing a walking line around 100 bpm, one finger, straight quarter notes for half an hour. It's zen-like.