Learning scales or notes first.

[red rooster]

Was at bass lessons last night and our teacher was trying to teach us the major scales now I understand that you can play the scales in various ways positions etc but to me learning the notes on the neck should come first ,

[blue]

That might be good for you, however you will learn those notes from learning the scales. Learning those scales is really important. Don't challenge your teacher.

Blue

[red rooster]

Thanks blue I kept my opinion to my self , I'm not to bad as I know the notes on the fretboard so I can work the scales out , but a few of the people were getting quite confused .I know playing the scales and saying the notes as you play them helps. I'm lucky I work for my self so I can sit an practise at work between doing other things .

[DrBike]

If I understand your post correctly it sounds like there are several of you learning together at the same time and there are people at different levels. It also sounds like you have an elementary grasp of where the notes are on the fretboard (which is more than a lot of players).

If I were in your position I'd ask myself if these lessons/teacher are the most appropriate way of learning for you. From what I can fathom so far it would appear that it's not and your money may be better spent in other ways. I'd speak to your tutor and see if you want to continue with him or use some online or book based learning methods. Either that or consider one-to-one lessons with your current (or even another) tutor.

In my case I took some bass lessons a while ago, I'd been playing for a number of years already and thought that lessons would help me improve. The teacher wanted me to learn to read music from manuscript (sheet music) cos she assumed that I wanted to become the kind of bass player that she was (session player and solo artist), but I realised that what I wanted was to improve my technique rather than to learn to read the notes and play,

I'm not saying that you shouldn't learn the notes and scales but you should consider what you want to get out of the lessons rather than what the tutor wants to teach you "generically".

I know that some here will disagree with me but I personally feel that once you have the basics of playing the best way to "learn" is to get in a band and then compliment that with lessons on technique and "bandcraft".

[CamdenRob]

Learning the notes on the neck is pretty pointless without knowing how they relate to one another.

[ambient]

Playing the scales will teach you the notes, especially if you properly learn the scale rather than just a pattern.

[spacey]

You need to decide now what level you want to play.
With mates in cover bands/ doing some own stuff or to be able to walk in to the orchestra pit and play from sheet music.
For just doing what most do, playing in hobby bands, endless learning of notation and scale theory is not really required.
Learning the notes is a far better way to start, then a basic major minor and blues scale and move it around the neck.
Then hit some tab and start learning some riffs and tunes.
Everyone will shout, oh no learn theory first, but sit em down with some sheet music and say right play blind and they wont have a clue.
Thats because like most, we took the easy route and just learnt to play the bits we needed to play and cut out the other 90%.

I put a lad right who had had months of lessons and could still not play anything to any standard .
Sure he knew the scales slowly but he could not play anything fast or accurate.
I asked him, why is your thumb over the neck and not on the back and why has your instructor not shown you why your thumb goes on the back of the neck so you can span more notes.
His reply was he told me to put my hand where it's comfortable for me
He went off and a month later he messaged me to say he rectified his thumb position, his hand ached and ached, but then it stopped as he built up muscle and all of a sudden it just got very easy to play things.
He is now quite a good player in a covers band and happy, if he wants to learn theory the option is open to him, but until he learned to get his hands right, no amount of lessons were going to get him playing anything.

[Norris]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1416997486' post='2615802']
Learning the notes on the neck is pretty pointless without knowing how they relate to one another.
[/quote]
+1

I've played bass for years and before that a lot of classical training on piano and trombone. However my bass is entirely self taught. If you pointed to a string and fret I'd still have to work out what note it was rather than just knowing. Having a decent classical background means I can still find my way around the fretboard, do nice little runs and arpeggios, etc.

In other words scales and chord progressions (+ intervals & cadences!) are more important imho

[DrBike]

I'm more inclined to agree with Spacey.

When I took up bass I'd already been playing guitar for a while (self taught), and had enough understanding to follow tabs etc. but it took me a while to know where most of the notes are on the neck.

As Spacey said (and as I tried to say earlier) it depends on what level you want to play at and what you're trying to achieve. If you want to play some covers with some mates then In my opinion as long as you have a rudimentary understanding of theory it's better to concentrate on technique and "bandcraft" than learning notes and scales. However if you want to be more serious about your playing then certainly the scales etc. are something to concentrate on from the start. I guess that also the more formalised learning method work better for some than others.

I've always approached my music as something that I do as a hobby and to get enjoyment out of. I have a day job that has given me a reasonable career that's nothing to do with music and for me playing bass in a band gives me a creative outlet and an opportunity to meet like-minded people.

Could I sit in an orchestra pit and play notes off the sheet music? No, but then again that's not what I ever wanted to do.
Can I sit in with a bunch of mates and knock out a few covers? Yes and that's what I enjoy doing.

[gadgie]

I'm currently trying to learn scales. However, what I'm having trouble with is what I should play in a minor or major thingy. I'm sure someone told me to play on the 5th fret for something in C, but can't remember if minor or major.

anyway, played guitar for years knew loads of chords and were to play them, but didn't know the notes in the chord(s) doh!

[Drax]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1416998817' post='2615825']
+1

I've played bass for years and before that a lot of classical training on piano and trombone. However my bass is entirely self taught. If you pointed to a string and fret I'd still have to work out what note it was rather than just knowing. Having a decent classical background means I can still find my way around the fretboard, do nice little runs and arpeggios, etc.

In other words scales and chord progressions (+ intervals & cadences!) are more important imho
[/quote]

+1. OP Learn the shapes of scales and arpeggios. So long as you can find the root, the rest just follows. It's all about the shapes..

[timmo]

I found learning the notes and scales, arpeggio`s hard work. On changing tutors, i found the the Chromatic scale is the best way to learn scales and arpeggios. You don`t need to know all the notes, and it is all transferable down the neck. The notes come together over time. No idea if it is the right way to go, but i find it easier.
I found myself questioning my tutor and myself, because some of it seemed so pointless. It is only when you can execute the stuff, and move forward that you realise how important it is. You need to trust the tutor. Do whatever you are asked, and practice until you get it. You will find it all starts coming together over time.

[ambient]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1417013580' post='2616090']
I found learning the notes and scales, arpeggio`s hard work. On changing tutors, i found the the Chromatic scale is the best way to learn scales and arpeggios. You don`t need to know all the notes, and it is all transferable down the neck. The notes come together over time. No idea if it is the right way to go, but i find it easier.
I found myself questioning my tutor and myself, because some of it seemed so pointless. It is only when you can execute the stuff, and move forward that you realise how important it is. You need to trust the tutor. Do whatever you are asked, and practice until you get it. You will find it all starts coming together over time.
[/quote]

That's how I teach people the notes, most know the notes on the open strings, it's pretty easy if you know the next note from E is F, then F# etc.

Having a good tutor is invaluable.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1417009947' post='2616022']
I'm currently trying to learn scales. However, what I'm having trouble with is what I should play in a minor or major thingy. I'm sure someone told me to play on the 5th fret for something in C, but can't remember if minor or major.

anyway, played guitar for years knew loads of chords and were to play them, but didn't know the notes in the chord(s) doh!
[/quote]
A minor scale is the same notes as the major scale a 5th down. Eg, C major & A minor are all the same notes.
It's worth getting something like the Guitar Toolkit app to help you look at scales.

[Norris]

Any major scale is the same structure just with a different root note. Tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone, semi-tone. A tone is also known as a "whole" note and is two frets. A semi-tone is a single fret. Translate it up the neck as required and learn how & when to transition the strings to maintain those gaps.

[SteveK]

[quote name='red rooster' timestamp='1416971852' post='2615668']
but to me learning the notes on the neck should come first ,
[/quote]Learning the notes is something that can easily be learnt at home with little need for guidance or explanation. IMO spending 1 session or more learning notes would be a waste of valuable tutoring time, and mind-numbingly boring for those in the group that have put a modicum of effort before going down the lessons route.

As has been said, saying the notes to yourself while playing these scales is very helpful.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1416973260' post='2615669']
That might be good for you, however you will learn those notes from learning the scales. Learning those scales is really important. Don't challenge your teacher.

Blue
[/quote]I always challenged my teachers! I think it's necessary. They is no point doing things blindly. You gain better understanding by asking why and then getting an explanation.

[Lozz196]

Seems to me the teacher has a specified structure, and will get you where you need to be providing you last the course. A bit like in The Karate Kid, wax-on, wax-off sort of thing.

[icastle]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1417024852' post='2616316']
Seems to me the teacher has a specified structure, and will get you where you need to be providing you last the course. A bit like in The Karate Kid, wax-on, wax-off sort of thing.
[/quote]

+1

At best you'll learn your scales and your notes.
At worst, you'll have a lovely shiny bass.

[Dad3353]

Either follow what your teacher is teaching you, or change teachers. It might be wise to have a chat with him to confirm that your objectives are compatible. Just sayin'.

[ambient]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1417019923' post='2616230']
I always challenged my teachers! I think it's necessary. They is no point doing things blindly. You gain better understanding by asking why and then getting an explanation.
[/quote]

Hmm, but you go to your tutor because they know more than you, and you want to improve. I give my students aims and objectives, based around what they want to learn. I explain at the start of each lesson what we're going to do, and ask at the end if they're ok with what we've done.

[timmo]

Are you going through something like RGT grading books? If so, it starts of with scales and stuff, and progresses as the grades go on. If that is the case, and you want to grade, then it seems standard.Nothing wrong with the way he is teaching you, if that is want you want to do I saw the grading pointless for me personally, so changed teachers.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1417026959' post='2616358']
Hmm, but you go to your tutor because they know more than you, and you want to improve. I give my students aims and objectives, based around what they want to learn. I explain at the start of each lesson what we're going to do, and ask at the end if they're ok with what we've done.


[/quote]
I didn't challenge everything they said, but a lot. I found I learned more from discussing why that just following blindly. Play this cos i said so etc! It served me well. I have a degree in music, understand theory. get some goods gigs. Also after a while when you get an understanding of music teachers don't necessarily know more than you just because they are teachers. Whilst doing my degree there were at least two lecturers who a number of us knew more than.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Lord Sausage

[stingrayPete1977]

Im not a theory expert but the this picture might help explain a little bit regarding your conundrum, knowing every note on every fret by name will help a lot with the page visible on the left, learn to read the dots and learn all your notes on the board and you can play anything really but on the other hand the ability to read the chart on the right will be more useful for quickly learning a song whilst adding your own vibe/style to it, you could learn notes only and play along to that chart using root notes only and it would sound ok, learn some scales and the fun begins as you can add 5ths, maj or min 3rds, the various appropriate 7ths for the right chords etc and loads of stuff im still learning!

[URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-11/20141126_203822_zpscjgngmbi.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-11/20141126_203822_zpscjgngmbi.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[ambient]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1417030007' post='2616430']
I didn't challenge everything they said, but a lot. I found I learned more from discussing why that just following blindly. Play this cos i said so etc! It served me well. I have a degree in music, understand theory. get some goods gigs. Also after a while when you get an understanding of music teachers don't necessarily know more than you just because they are teachers. Whilst doing my degree there were at least two lecturers who a number of us knew more than.
[/quote]

I think I possibly misunderstood what you meant, sorry.

Asking questions of the tutor shows, to me anyway, that you're learning and involved in what's going on.