Holding The Bass Neck

[Dan_Q]

Hi All,

A total newbie question this if ever I've heard one. I've done a search but couldn't find much on this- apologies if its been covered before.

I've been playing bass regularly for a couple of months, but its just occurred to me that I may be holding the neck wrong. I grip the neck of my bass like I do my guitar, full round grip of the neck.

From some of the theory I've read, I should be placing my thumb on the middle of the back of the neck- is this correct?

I don't normally worry about things like this as on guitar I'm self taught so always done whats most comfortable for me, but if this will restrict my future progress on bass then i'd like to nip it in the bud ASAP.

I have tried playing with the thumb on the back of the neck and its not so bad, as thats how I play barre chords on guitar so it is vauguely familiar, but I have found that as my mind wanders (common thing with me ) I end up back the old way.

Any thoughts would be appreciated on this,

Thanks in advance

[stingrayfan]

You're fine - lot of bassists do both. I was taught thumb behind the neck but prefer thumb over the top for rockier stuff.

[BassMunkee]

Hi there,

I'm self-taught as well, and whilst I am fairly certain that some of the theorists out there will wade in with the "correct" way (KIDDING) what I can say is this - My grip on the neck depends very much on what and where I am playing on the frets.
I've never found there to be a "right" way of doing it, merely a way that feels right for what you are trying to achieve.
That's what I think anyway...

[geilerbass]

Positioning your thumb on the back of the neck is considered the 'standard' technique, but that's not to say it's correct. The most important thing is that you're comfortable, your playing is not restricted and that your wrists are not too bent. Positioning your hand so that your wrist is flexed to far in either direction can lead to tendinitis or worse, carpal tunnel syndrome. If your current positioning is causing your wrist to bend too much, I would suggest trying to get used to a position where your wrist is kept straighter.

Edited August 6, 2008 by geilerbass

[ZMech]

Well I don't know about you, but I find I can barely spread my fingers if my thumb is sort of wrapped round touching the fretboard. Whilst this may not be a 'correct' technique, i do reckon that it makes more sense: [url="http://www.bass-musician-magazine.com/General/bass-musician-magazine-detail.asp?article-id=702145660&page=0"]http://www.bass-musician-magazine.com/Gene...5660&page=0[/url]

[Kev]

im self taught, and tbh i do whatever feels comfortable tbh! if i feel im stretching too much i move my thumb to centre of the neck, if not i keep it wrapped round, but tbh i change all the time, go with the flow

[Dan_Q]

Brilliant stuff, many thanks for the replys guys

I played some stuff this morning, and watched exactly what my left hand was doing without trying to think about it too much.

It seems that when i play along the E string i do infact drop my thumb partly down the back or the neck, but on the other strings i resort to thumb on top of the neck type guitar technique (varing degrees depending on whereabouts I am on the fretboard and which string i'm playing). So yes, like others on this thread it seems I do both, depending what i am playing.

I find this the most comfortable, and it doesnt strain me at all so i can live with it no problem- it seems i strain more when I try and keep my thumb on the back of the neck. I think i'll stick with whats comfortable

Zach> maybe my bass has a thinner neck, or I have longer fingers? or maybe a combination of both?

Thanks again for the replys people, its put my mind at rest somewhat.

[SteveK]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with most of the posts here:

[quote]but if this will restrict my future progress on bass then i'd like to nip it in the bud ASAP.[/quote]It [i]will[/i] restrict your future progress. If you're serious about playing bass, then you should, as you say, "nip it in the bud". Gripping the neck with the thumb over the top [i]is[/i] bad technique.

By gripping the neck you are severely restricting movement and the span of your fingers.

[quote]I should be placing my thumb on the middle of the back of the neck- is this correct?[/quote]Yes, You may find that you have to have your bass slung a bit higher in order to achieve this comfortably.

If you're [i]not[/i] so serious, and are happy playing roots and fifths, then, as you were

Steve

[Dan_Q]

ah.......... right OK.

I mainly play indie stuff- REM to blur to joy division to the stone roses type things, but I also like a bit of classic and modern rock (i'm learning a couple of rage against the machine lines at the mo) and eventually I'd like to try other styles too.

Please note that I play for my own pleasure- i don't plan to be in a band or anything like that.

I assume "roots" is like single note chord following? and as for what a fifth is i've no idea :blush: but yeah what I play is really simple, root notes with a melody (if thats teh right word) inbetween.

I think i'll carry on playing as I am for now, and adapt it later if what I'm trying to play demands it. Many thanks for your input

[Geek99]

yes, you are correct about "roots" - the "fifth" is the note that is two strings across and two frets down, or alternatively seven frets down the same string from your starting point. There is more to it in melodic terms than that though thats the simple version.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Geek99' post='260816' date='Aug 12 2008, 01:43 PM']yes, you are correct about "roots" - the "fifth" is the note that is two strings across and two frets down, or alternatively seven frets down the same string from your starting point[/quote]

2 strings across and 2 frets down is the octave ("twelfth").

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)#Interval_number_and_quality"]See here[/url].

(Note: a "semitone" is, to all intents and purposes, a fret)

S.P.

Edited August 12, 2008 by stylonpilson

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Dan_Q' post='257596' date='Aug 7 2008, 09:17 PM']I mainly play indie stuff- REM to blur to joy division to the stone roses type things,[/quote]

That is likely to change over time. Like when you hear proper jazz for the first time

The thumb in the middle of the neck is a tried and tested method that facilitates better access theh neck. The other way is like running with a stone in your shoe; yes, you will get there but why would you do it if you didn't have to!

[Sarah5string]

I do a mix of both, as I use my thumb to mute my bottom B.

[XB26354]

Speaking as a teacher for the last 10-15 years, I can't see any reason why you shouldn't learn with the thumb in the middle of the back of the neck. You will definitely limit what you can play with the "baseball" grip, to the point where even fairly attainable bass lines are unnecessarily difficult. Guitar is a different instrument with a different function - the thumb is often used to grab root notes for chords where the rest of the fingers are on the top 2-3 strings, so there is no choice but to wrap the thumb round. As other threads have mentioned, position playing (i.e., lining up one finger per fret, or double bass-style, index, middle and ring/pinky together) is useful for many things that we commonly play. It is next to impossible with the thumb-wrap left hand.
With regard to extended range basses (5+ strings) - muting where possible with the right hand (especially low strings) results in a much cleaner sound and frees up the left hand to fret.

[Dan_Q]

[quote name='Geek99' post='260816' date='Aug 12 2008, 01:43 PM']yes, you are correct about "roots" - the "fifth" is the note that is two strings across and two frets down, or alternatively seven frets down the same string from your starting point. There is more to it in melodic terms than that though thats the simple version.[/quote]

[quote name='stylonpilson' post='260828' date='Aug 12 2008, 01:59 PM']2 strings across and 2 frets down is the octave ("twelfth").

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)#Interval_number_and_quality"]See here[/url].

(Note: a "semitone" is, to all intents and purposes, a fret)

S.P.[/quote]

Good stuff- when I think about it a lot of basslines i've mearnt have notes like that in them, and i've even added the odd cheeky one in myself too when it gets to a boring bit :blush: probably not the best idea but its fun! thanks for that to both of you.


[quote name='bilbo230763' post='260832' date='Aug 12 2008, 02:06 PM']That is likely to change over time. Like when you hear proper jazz for the first time

The thumb in the middle of the neck is a tried and tested method that facilitates better access theh neck. The other way is like running with a stone in your shoe; yes, you will get there but why would you do it if you didn't have to![/quote]

Ha ha nah i'm stuck in the early 90's i'm afraid to say so its just my kinda music i wanna play at the mo. I'll never rule it out though, lots of things change with age

Yeah I understand that- but i really dont struggle with a wrapped hand, except when I play the E where I do put my thumb on the back of the neck. I think this is why i'm finding it difficult to break the habit. I suppose what doesnt help is my mostly played 6 string is an LP with a 50's neck (i call it the baseball bat) and my bass has quite a slender neck I think (not really that sure as I havent played many) so maybe as it feels quite similar to my guitar, its not helping me.

Also my bass is a little neck heavy comapred to my guitars, and I think I find it easier to cradle the neck most of the time? I always play stood up.

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='260998' date='Aug 12 2008, 04:52 PM']I do a mix of both, as I use my thumb to mute my bottom B.[/quote]

Ah I see- you know thats one thing i'm also struggling with, on guitar all my muting is done with my left hand, and it seems on bass I struggle to do that, and i'm attempting to learn to do some muting on my picking / plucking hand. Maybe that will come with time- especially now I know its possible cheers

[quote name='XB26354' post='261042' date='Aug 12 2008, 05:37 PM']Speaking as a teacher for the last 10-15 years, I can't see any reason why you shouldn't learn with the thumb in the middle of the back of the neck. You will definitely limit what you can play with the "baseball" grip, to the point where even fairly attainable bass lines are unnecessarily difficult. Guitar is a different instrument with a different function - the thumb is often used to grab root notes for chords where the rest of the fingers are on the top 2-3 strings, so there is no choice but to wrap the thumb round. As other threads have mentioned, position playing (i.e., lining up one finger per fret, or double bass-style, index, middle and ring/pinky together) is useful for many things that we commonly play. It is next to impossible with the thumb-wrap left hand.
With regard to extended range basses (5+ strings) - muting where possible with the right hand (especially low strings) results in a much cleaner sound and frees up the left hand to fret.[/quote]

Yeah, i do play lots of notes with my thumb on guitar, especially on E shape full barre chords, but when i change over to A shape ones I transition into a thumb in middle of the neck, like I should be doing all the time on bass. So I've always played guitar by holding its neck however was most most comfortable for what i'm playing at the time, but it seems this is bad practise on Bass. I've never had a guitar lesson in my life either by the way, which is probably why I have bad habits on that too.

I will have a look at those lining up of frets, that should enlighten me a bit more to how much i'm limiting myself, thanks for that

And by the way- many thanks to all who have posted in this thread, its all good stuff and helping me out, I will find my way eventually thanks a lot people

[GreeneKing]

Well you did ask. I'd say you should change your style now while it's early days. A good technique will enable you to play all music better.

But if it's a case of 'should I change my style? Yes. I don't think I'll bother then'. Why ask?

Maybe a couple of visits to a good tutor would be money well spent?

Main thing is to enjoy it and I think good technique helps here

Peter

[Dan_Q]

Hi there,

yeah I'm sorry about that- i'm just a little confused with myself at the mo, i do appreciate everyones input and i'm sorry if it offended anyone the way I came across, I didn't mean any harm- it does seem quite abrupt re-reading it. :blush:

I'm having a bit of time off from playing at the mo (other priorities getting in the way) so when i'm "back on it" I will take a long hard look at it As you say it would be best to nip it in the bud early on, if I can. OK so it will knock me back a bit, but we'll see how it goes

As for the fun element- no problems there sir sometimes I just can't put my bass down, I'm loving every minute I spend playing it I can feel my les paul frowning at me

[Cernael]

One thing I've come up with lately as a possible help to develop this "thumb in the middle of the neck" playing style:

place a little bit of BluTack there, and anchor your thumb on it; then play scales without changing position, utilizing all your strings.

I've yet to try this myself, so I ask; ye who know, does this sound like a good or horrid idea? This should not take up the whole practice time, of course, but in short bursts? Interlaced with playing the same scales, without the tack, while consciously focusing on the thumb?

[mcgraham]

Whenever I meet someone who clutches the neck like you've described, I demonstrate this...

Situation 1) I place my hand on the neck as you've described, with the thumb anchored around the top side of the neck, then show the other player how many frets I can reach at full stretch whilst keeping that thumb anchored. You'll get 2-3 max, depending on where you are on the neck (around the 7th fret say?).

Situation 2) I switch to thumb behind the neck, and show how many frets I can reach with my thumb behind the neck, usually 4 or 5 depending on where I am on the neck (around the 7th fret again).

I then get them to try it; I've not encountered anyone who doesn't acknowledge at least the ergonomic benefits. Keeping the thumb behind the neck rather than anchored on top of it will help relieve tension in your playing, will give you greater stretch along the freboard, as well as making it easier to stretch across it.

Mark

[XB26354]

[quote name='Cernael' post='261261' date='Aug 12 2008, 11:33 PM']One thing I've come up with lately as a possible help to develop this "thumb in the middle of the neck" playing style:

place a little bit of BluTack there, and anchor your thumb on it; then play scales without changing position, utilizing all your strings.

I've yet to try this myself, so I ask; ye who know, does this sound like a good or horrid idea? This should not take up the whole practice time, of course, but in short bursts? Interlaced with playing the same scales, without the tack, while consciously focusing on the thumb?[/quote]
Can't really see how it would benefit you - the danger is you'll end up squeezing the neck harder. The thumb should just act as a pivot and stabilising point - very little pressure should be used. The same thing applies to fretting notes with the left hand fingers - use as little pressure as necessary to stop the note buzzing. I would avoid using any "approach" that doesn't allow you to learn in a regular playing situation - unless of course you normally play with BluTack on the neck

[Cernael]

Heh.
My theory was that thumb-over-neck technique is a habitual thing, and the BluTack is mainly just a way to disrupt that habit.

On another note, I found I had a less bent wrist when trying out the thumb-over-neck approach; one thing to watch out for when switching, I guess. I mean, you don't want to strain your wrist, and if adopting proper technique means you increase the strain, something's not right, right?

Edited August 13, 2008 by Cernael

[mcgraham]

Good point! Strain on the left wrist is something to watch out for. Suddenly the absolute stretch you can reach is a lot larger, the palm ends up being parallel to the fingerboard but the forearm is still perpendicular to the neck, thus giving a pretty severe angle at the wrist.

I've mentioned this before, but I've found the issue of playing ergonomics is greatly mitigated by bringing the entirety of the bass closer into the body, i.e. so that the plane of the bass is almost/more parallel to the front of your body. This evens out the distances your arms have to cover in order to 'reach' the bass, and gives everything a much more ergonomic natural angle.

Mark

[Cernael]

How do you mean? point the headstock to the roof, or what?

[mcgraham]

No. The majority of bassists play with the bass anchored to their right hip (assuming they are right handed). So if you were looking directly down from above, there is a 45 degree or greater angle formed between the bass and the player. This is a contributing factor to having a bunched up plucking arm as the heel/butt of the bass is angled into that side of the body, and a contributing factor to bad form in the fretting arm as you're having to stretch (compared to the other arm) to reach the bass. Effectively fighting to achieve a stance that will allow you to reach and play the bass.

Again, looking down from above, bring the whole instrument into the fretting hand side, i.e. decreasing the angle until it is more parallel to your body. This corrects both issues. It feels better on the left arm instantly, but feels a bit odd on the right as the bass is being pulled away from it. This 'evens' up the ergonomics on both sides. Good example, look up older Gary Willis vids on youtube. If anyone knows the ones I mean please post them, or I will do it when I'm home.

If that's not clear please let me know and I'll try harder.

Mark

[Cernael]

Ah, I see. Thanks!