Going back to school ? Old school style

[ezbass]

For the size of stages that I get to play, a monster rig just wouldn't fit with everybody else's gear too. My PJB Cub and powered cab fit on stage nicely, fit in the car and don't bother my osteopath. Oh yeah, it sounds great too. The only down side is the aesthetic, an Aggie 750/1 on an 8x10 is a hard look to beat.

[inthedoghouse]

I've been toying with the idea of putting my old 100w JMP Marshall head through my TE bass cabs just to see what it sounds like.

But I can't play it loud enough at home to get a good impression and I don't want to take up valuable rehearsal/band time experimenting.

Has anybody here tried this combination?

[chrismuzz]

I've tried big and heavy, and the Peavey rig had amazing low mid punch and sat in the mix so nicely... More so than any Ampeg I've tried! But I had to go back to Markbass in the end, because it's just got that unique upper midrange cut that I've never been able to get with any other manufacturer. The weight is a non issue for me, but its a nice bonus to be able to load my gear in without help, in two trips

[JTUK]

Consider the size of the stage and FOH power... and I'd say that the likes of little boxes like
like the Markbass 112 combo would run out of steam and ability to fill up the stage. Sure the bass
player might be able to hear it but it will be no use to anyone else. If you have good monitoring, then
you can get the bass round the stage via that, but not ideal if only one guy on the desk FOH...as getting comms
to him during the gig is going to be an issue, as he just isn't near enough to hear and react in a worthwhile way.
Mon engr is fair enough as his whole focus is on the stage...
The number of times the bass and band have to play 'blind' on a relatively important gig for the band is
just not a chance worth taking with small kit, IMO. If you know and trust the set-up to work, then that is a better
position, but who uses the same P.A company and stage config everytime..??
Too many variables for the gigs I do, so I take the rig that will do the job when all else doesn't quite scale up
and work out.

A stage is 4m x 8m minimum and in a large room, a 112 will get lost with support even in the stage area, IME

[stingrayPete1977]

Just put another 1x12 cab under it and job done, a mate of mine is running two MB 1x12 combos both with a 1x12 cab underneath to make a 4x12 modular rig, he plays everything from the local Jam night to Birmingham Symphony hall with that setup.

[Delberthot]

I went down the lightweight route back when the Genz Shuttle first came out and tried a few others but preferred the big heavy sound so that's why I went for the rig that I have at the moment

The two Laney cabs that I have now have a combined weight of 48kgs and it wasn't that long ago that I carted around a Trace 2x15" that was 46kgs on its own.

I still wanted light but big, hefty sound as well and that's what I have with this setup

[chris_b]

Again, my 2p.

You can't just play big or old gear and get a better sound. It takes more than that. You can sound just as bad with "old school" gear as you can with modern gear, and a lot of the "old school" gear guys do not make the most of their sound. Having good ears is better than having good gear.

I've heard so many guys with vintage gear, thinking they are the mutts nuts because this what the original guys played, and they usually don't sound half as good as they think they are.

IMO old gear is mostly just old gear. Most of the music played in the first 20 years of Rock sounded pretty average, so I don't get any warm feeling when I see old gear. The strength of back then was what the guys played on that gear. As the gear has got better the creativity of musicians has dropped off. But that might be a different thread.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1417863855' post='2624640']
I'd say that the likes of little boxes like
like the Markbass 112 combo would run out of steam and ability to fill up the stage. Sure the bass
player might be able to hear it but it will be no use to anyone else.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree with this more. Smallest cab I would gig with is a 4x10, maybe a 2x12 if it was something particularly special!

[JTUK]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1417871976' post='2624719']
I couldn't agree with this more. Smallest cab I would gig with is a 4x10, maybe a 2x12 if it was something particularly special!
[/quote]

The other thing is that with a small box with no real room to go volume-wise... the bass player will be trying to wring as much out of it
as poss EQ-wise, just to get it heard..and that just makes a total pigs ear of the gig. No fun for the bass player as the sound is serverley compromised from his POV, but the band is playing with man down and therefore there is no interaction between players as no one can hear them to do so..
I groan when bass players turn up with tiny combos and they think the FOH is going to rescue everything...
The MB121 combo with ext cab will be reasonably capable but you need to know how well your rig will cope with the area it needs to cover or fill.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1417871254' post='2624717']
Again, my 2p.

You can't just play big or old gear and get a better sound. It takes more than that. You can sound just as bad with "old school" gear as you can with modern gear, and a lot of the "old school" gear guys do not make the most of their sound. Having good ears is better than having good gear.

I've heard so many guys with vintage gear, thinking they are the mutts nuts because this what the original guys played, and they usually don't sound half as good as they think they are.

IMO old gear is mostly just old gear. Most of the music played in the first 20 years of Rock sounded pretty average, so I don't get any warm feeling when I see old gear. The strength of back then was what the guys played on that gear. As the gear has got better the creativity of musicians has dropped off. But that might be a different thread.
[/quote]

Quite right... all it might have been is good for the day... but an 810 is still the industry standard for stage hire
so they are likely to be a modern 'vintage' cab.
But by the same token, you don't see much class D or lightweight cabs on stages either... Markbass might be the
most common exception..but not their combos..

Standard touring rigs are Ampeg, Aguilar and Ashdown... for the most part.
You might still see a few Eden's

[stingrayPete1977]

What most people miss is the in ears though, great go and watch someone rock out in front of a massive rig then when they have finished and they go and talk the show's host or whatever they pull out the cutom molded in ears that have better ear protection than most folks wear for a clay pigeon shoot!

I have never ringed the EQ out of a combo for the FOH sound either, pre EQ Di everytime for me unless I have control of the desk which is rare.

[stingrayPete1977]

OK this guy will endorse a paper bag if they pay him so he never appears to play the same gear more than once but you get the idea, they are all wearing in ears, it is smoke and mirrors folks, those amps might as well be set up back stage or wireless from another studio, smoke and mirrors

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcB0gS3mtO4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcB0gS3mtO4[/url]

Edited December 6, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1417780847' post='2623917']
Gee all this talk of big heavy rigs is making me consider chopping in my PJB stuff and getting BIG stuff.
[/quote] ....I've seen the weight of PJB cabs! Not lightweight in the slightest!
[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1417871254' post='2624717']
Again, my 2p.

You can't just play big or old gear and get a better sound. It takes more than that. You can sound just as bad with "old school" gear as you can with modern gear, and a lot of the "old school" gear guys do not make the most of their sound. Having good ears is better than having good gear.

I've heard so many guys with vintage gear, thinking they are the mutts nuts because this what the original guys played, and they usually don't sound half as good as they think they are.

IMO old gear is mostly just old gear. Most of the music played in the first 20 years of Rock sounded pretty average, so I don't get any warm feeling when I see old gear. The strength of back then was what the guys played on that gear. As the gear has got better the creativity of musicians has dropped off. But that might be a different thread.
[/quote] being a good player is better than having good gear. Lets face it, in the majority of cases, if you couldn't do the job straight into the desk with the venues spare DI box, then no amount of gear is going to help you.

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1417876370' post='2624775']
What most people miss is the in ears though, great go and watch someone rock out in front of a massive rig then when they have finished and they go and talk the show's host or whatever they pull out the cutom molded in ears that have better ear protection than most folks wear for a clay pigeon shoot!

I have never ringed the EQ out of a combo for the FOH sound either, pre EQ Di everytime for me unless I have control of the desk which is rare.
[/quote]

Not so sure... depends on the gig. Quite a few guys that I know don't own them ( haven't been allowed to keep them )
so that means the gig has to be geared up to afford them and some gigs can and some probably can't.
You'll still need a sound source and that may be direct or mic'd...
If you are talking top top level, then in ears will be a factor mostly, but down the scale..??

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1417879116' post='2624805']
....I've seen the weight of PJB cabs! Not lightweight in the slightest!
being a good player is better than having good gear. Lets face it, in the majority of cases, if you couldn't do the job straight into the desk with the venues spare DI box, then no amount of gear is going to help you.
[/quote]

This is how I have always rolled, Stingray into a £15 Di Box from the 80s found in the drawer a few months ago into the desk, bit of foldback for me and the drummer, nasty middy sound behind me from my own amp for clarity for the dusty end stuff and a great FOH sound mixed by the engineer

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1417879343' post='2624807']
Not so sure... depends on the gig. Quite a few guys that I know don't own them ( haven't been allowed to keep them )
so that means the gig has to be geared up to afford them and some gigs can and some probably can't.
You'll still need a sound source and that may be direct or mic'd...
If you are talking top top level, then in ears will be a factor mostly, but down the scale..??
[/quote]
The guy I know that will be playing stadiums with his modular MarkBass 4x12 does not use in ears and I am sure he will have a killer live sound on and off the stage, they will have a massive pa of course but even so I still think the bass amp as such is a small part of the live kit, many people dont mic them up yet comment on such a rig sounding great, can you hear the rig clearly at the back of the NEC?

[JTUK]

If you are on a big stage then your rig is for you..and the Mon enger will take control of putting your bass across the stage for others.
You need this for as much control as possible...but that gig is up a level and we don't often get a mon engr.
If you don't have that, then the monitoring will be controlled by FOH and he may have his hands full and be VERY slow
to react to stage mon issues..even if he is aware of them which will likely have to come from a prompt from the band.
It is these middle grounds gigs that I suggest need better coverage of the bass on stage than a single 12 will do.
My rig will augment the bass over to where the gtr is 6 mtrs or so away.
The other huge variable is volume discipline of your individual levels... which can render some monitor sound checks useless

[stingrayPete1977]

There isnt a gig where my 2x12 would lack enough stage volume, if that was running flat out and the rest of the band were matching it then it's not a stage I want to be sharing

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1417976609' post='2625682']
There isnt a gig where my 2x12 would lack enough stage volume, if that was running flat out and the rest of the band were matching it then it's not a stage I want to be sharing
[/quote]

Stage not big enough then...
500w isn't really man enough, IMO. and running it flat out wouldn't be a good sound
as most of these amps can't handle it.

[stingrayPete1977]

If its that big it WILL have a proper pa with wedges everywhere possibly ones that sound better than my bass rig, I run a 900watt head but my ears would be bleeding long before it started to distort.

[JTUK]

Going round in circles here...
How do you know what stages you get to play...?
Is it a question you routinely ask..? do you use a stage tech rider etc etc
Do you get one..?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1417986028' post='2625804']
Going round in circles here...
How do you know what stages you get to play...?

Because the person getting the gig will tell me where it is, if we haven't either played there before or seen another band play there we will either go and see it if it's local or search it on the Web, maybe find YouTube clips of other bands there, check the venue website etc etc


Is it a question you routinely ask..? I've never turned up at a gig totally blind regarding the venue size to some extent even if it's purely capacity based.

do you use a stage tech rider etc etc
Do you get one..? If the gig is too big for our pa we either hire a bigger one or use our own guys, both do lights, one of them did the take that tour if you were wondering what level of crew they are![/quote]
I've used my 2x12 at the local pub and large outdoor festivals, it is more than enough for any of them.

Edited December 7, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[Phil Starr]

If you want to settle this then you need some numbers and some evidence. As someone here says "the laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion".

You really don't need to be louder than the rest of the band, you actually need [b]not[/b] to be louder than the rest of the band. You are either in balance or not. I'm sure StingrayPete is saying he doesn't want to be on a stage where one band member is drowning out the rest of the band, not that he has an aversion to a particular physical space.

Ultimately the limiting factors are twofold, because if you spend enough there is no limit to how loud you can be. The limiting factors are the physiology of the human ear and the strength of the drummer. Sound levels over 100dB are going to cause permanent hearing loss if they are maintained for longer than 3 hours. Check the EU regulations, and those in the States if you want. Many doctors think these limits are too high by the way. In addition at that point the ears are already well into the 'red zone' where what you hear is distorted because the tiny muscles in the middle ear are clamping everything down to limit the vibrations transmitted to the inner ear.

A few years ago there was an article about sound levels measured on stage and off stage at a 'well known music festival in the West of England'. It measured sound levels at the ears of the musicians which varied between 100dB and 103db with the drummer getting the loudest sounds.

So, there is no point in being able to produce sounds higher in average level than 100dB, or 103dB to be safe (if by being safe you mean partially deaf ) Of course this is average level, you need to be able to cover the peaks with your amp/speakers. This is where it can be debated if you wish but I'd say a dynamic range, the gap between the loudest sound you'd make and the quietest you'd hear might be around 40dB. So you'd need to be able to go from 80-120dB. Bass speakers produce roughly 96-102dB for 1W depending upon make with a 1x12 usually at the bottom of this range. To get 120dB from a speaker with 96dB/W sensitivity would take just under 300W.

Without wishing to overcomplicate things this means that a 300W 1x12 can just about match a drummer in terms of volume, Two of them will more than match a drummer. If you need more volume so does the drummer and putting everything through the PA becomes essential.

Now the exceptions:
[size=4]if you use bass boost then every 3db of boost would need you to double the available power.[/size]
[size=4]If [/size][size=4]you use an octaver or fx you may need more power, at least 3d more power[/size]
[size=4]You need 6dB more power to get the same volume if you double your distance from the speakers on a big stage, but you'll then drown out the drums. Using floor monitors or something directional like an 8x10 becomes sensible.[/size]
[size=4]You need to have an extra 6db if you are playing in open air[/size]

[size=4]So a 1x12 will do for a lot of situations, two of them will cover almost all situations but you might need more if you boost the bass or use fx. There are exceptions but then you are into the realm of 'proper' sound engineering.[/size]

[size=4]Of course if you just like the sound of banks of multi coned, old school stuff then that's a good reason to use it. You know the cost is in shifting it, but that's down to choice and taste, not physics. There's no over-riding technical reason to look down you noses at lightweight or old school speakers, they can both do a job.[/size]

Edited December 8, 2014 by Phil Starr

[Low End Bee]

Even hearing the words Trace Elliot gives my back a memory twinge.
It was a lovely sounding thing but I'm not sure there's been a gigging situation I've been in since I got rid of the big rig when it would have been sonically better than my current lightweight TC set up.
If you're playing a big venue you're going bthrough the desk anyway.
Last but one gig I just took a Sansamp. Best bass sound of the night according to a few comments. Easy/lazy all the way for me.

[chris_b]

On Wednesday I'm gigging with a "power" Blues/Rock trio. We will be [i]very[/i] loud and I'll be taking 3 Berg 12's, 800 Thunderfunk watts and both volume controls will be set to at least 12 o'clock. I don't know if that will equate to 300-400 watts actual volume through the speakers but but the one thing I do know; Phil, I don't disbelieve your science but 1 112 wouldn't get anywhere close to the volume I'll need. I wouldn't even risk 2 12's at this volume.

I know it's mad and I never played this loud when I had my Marshall and Hiwatt stacks in the 70's, but the one thing that I'm trying to do with this rig is be loud enough to keep up with the guitarist, be clearly heard in all parts of the room, keep a good tone in the process and be able to carry the cabs out of the gig at the end of the night.

Parts of this rig are also used for gigging with an acoustic guitarist. Modularity is an important option with this gear.