Going back to school ? Old school style

[Clarky72]

A few years ago I was using all Ampeg. SVT HD with an 810 cab, plus I had a BA500 for tiny gigs, ones with too many stairs, or car parking at the other end of town. Slimmed that down to a 4x10 for ease.

I got all caught up in the tech rush and sold the lot. I bought myself a Barefaced Super 12T, which I still love, but not so lucky with the amps. I first bought a Genz Benz Shuttle. It was the most disgusting nauseating whine of amp I've ever had the displeasure to own. Utter crap, packed up within 3 weeks and had to go back to manufacturer to fix. It had absolutely no soul, no grunt, and sounded like a super clean hifi signal. I sold that on ebay straight away and regretted selling my SVT instantly.

I then bought a GK1001RB-ii, heavy-ish but sounding good again. Traded up for a GK 2001RB, heavier again in sound and physical weight and now I'm itching to get the SVT again.

There's a reason we all carried round super heavy amps for so many years. Its because they sounded amazing. If I played jazz or did gentle 2-piece shows maybe I wouldn't be so affected by the change, but nothing rocks the stage like an SVT and an 810.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1418031803' post='2626051']
On Wednesday I'm gigging with a "power" Blues/Rock trio. We will be [i]very[/i] loud and I'll be taking 3 Berg 12's, 800 Thunderfunk watts and both volume controls will be set to at least 12 o'clock. I don't know if that will equate to 300-400 watts actual volume through the speakers but but the one thing I do know; Phil, I don't disbelieve your science but 1 112 wouldn't get anywhere close to the volume I'll need. I wouldn't even risk 2 12's at this volume.

I know it's mad and I never played this loud when I had my Marshall and Hiwatt stacks in the 70's, but the one thing that I'm trying to do with this rig is be loud enough to keep up with the guitarist, be clearly heard in all parts of the room, keep a good tone in the process and be able to carry the cabs out of the gig at the end of the night.

Parts of this rig are also used for gigging with an acoustic guitarist. Modularity is an important option with this gear.
[/quote]

Quite...
A 212 should be enough on a smaller stage or quiet band levels on a larger stage.
An acoustic drum will have quite a large dynamic range. To be a monitor for me,
I'll use a 750w into 4 ohms amp and a 212 and 210. ( it is probably capable of putting out a good sound at around 600w or so and anymore and I'll hear the 210 start to struggle...) There will be spillage and this might get
into mics but there is also a volume control which will be set up an sound check. The sound check
will have just bass running on the stage with drums for a basic level..and then others will ask for
bits and pieces in their monitors.... IF the P.A has 4 mon mixes or a stage mix...
My point is that you don't know if you don't have the P.A spec..and even then..what you request and what is delivered
can be two different things.
I just say take what you are VERY confident will cover that gig... but sorry, a single 112 is very unlikely to be it... unless
the band is very quiet, has In-ears ( then they'd probably not want amps on stage either ) or have 'produced' the stage spec...
If you are getting stylists in to sort out the band image, part of that will also be what looks ok on stage as well, but for our
level, a 112 cab will struggle and so will certain 212's..
Depending on the gig depends what sort of stage volume you can go for as well...

Bands should know this which is why they'll have plugs as well... and be prepared to use them.

[stingrayPete1977]

Phil has nailed it for me, if your drummer is louder than my Genz 2x12 acoustically I'll eat my hat, if you are using that much fold back on stage to make everyone as loud as the amps at full tilt then, A-the pa being used should be able to handle some of your foh to be sent on stage and B-for me personally and don't get me wrong I've been known to rock out, a stage at that volume isn't where I want to be on a regular basis.

From my first gig to my last I'd say the loudest stage sound has been in rehearsal rooms or very small venues, the quietest stage volume yet with clarity of all members of the band has been on the largest stages I've played on. One band I play with uses electric drums, it's been known that we can talk at normal volume during a song which is a bit odd and I agree not suited for rocking out but great for certain gigs.

Edited December 8, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1418040899' post='2626160']
... but sorry, a single 112 is very unlikely to be it...
[/quote]

[color=#222222]That said, I have used a Walkabout 12 on and off for the past six years and I have never had an issue with hearing myself on stage, this combo has covered a whole range of gigs from garden parties and wedding functions through to sizeable beer and blues festivals without issue.[/color]

[color=#222222]The wider point that comes from threads that I read on here regarding gear, is that as bass players we're very good at seeking great tone, which often take the form of 'cab voicing' debates, or competing and cutting through the mix against busy drummers and guitarists which lead to more powerful gear or larger speaker area debates, but for me it’s the overall contribution to the music that matters the most and I'll settle for hearing the notes that I'm playing with the band[/color]

[color=#222222]If I want a great tone this is best delivered by the Walkabout into a 1x15” – I wouldn’t gig this though, as the nuances and timbres would be lost in the mix and render it pointless.[/color]

[color=#222222]I don't see any rights or wrongs in this thread, but if you want to carry big amps and cabs, go for it.[/color]

[JTUK]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1418046181' post='2626231']
[color=#222222]That said, I have used a Walkabout 12 on and off for the past six years and I have never had an issue with hearing myself on stage, this combo has covered a whole range of gigs from garden parties and wedding functions through to sizeable beer and blues festivals without issue.[/color]

[color=#222222]The wider point that comes from threads that I read on here regarding gear, is that as bass players we're very good at seeking great tone, which often take the form of 'cab voicing' debates, or competing and cutting through the mix against busy drummers and guitarists which lead to more powerful gear or larger speaker area debates, but for me it’s the overall contribution to the music that matters the most and I'll settle for hearing the notes that I'm playing with the band[/color]

[color=#222222]If I want a great tone this is best delivered by the Walkabout into a 1x15” – I wouldn’t gig this though, as the nuances and timbres would be lost in the mix and render it pointless.[/color]

[color=#222222]I don't see any rights or wrongs in this thread, but if you want to carry big amps and cabs, go for it.[/color]
[/quote]

No one would be more anal about hearing every note I play, than me and of course, there is a saturation point.

[4000]

[quote name='inthedoghouse' timestamp='1417863405' post='2624637']
I've been toying with the idea of putting my old 100w JMP Marshall head through my TE bass cabs just to see what it sounds like.

But I can't play it loud enough at home to get a good impression and I don't want to take up valuable rehearsal/band time experimenting.

Has anybody here tried this combination?
[/quote]

Yes. Had a JMP and an original Trace 4x10 (200w, no tweeter, painted cab). Sounded [i]very[/i] growly, the growliest I've had.And much better than through the Marshall 4x12, which I hated.

[4000]

I played the Marquee with two 4x10s, an SVP preamp and a 150W Laney power amp. I had it on 3. In a rock band. It was plenty loud enough.

[Lozz196]

I must admit some of the needs here really amaze me. I play in a hardcore punk band, which isn`t exactly quiet, and using a passive Precision into my Aguilar Tonehammer 500, with the volume at about 9 o`clock (drive on full, gain about midday) into my Barefaced Super12T, I`ve more than enough volume for what I want/need.

All we want on the stages we play is the backline to be as loud as the drums - FOH is to make things louder. If we do play a venue without FOH, if I go louder than the drums onstage the sound the audience will get is more than likely to be rotten (assuming being punk it wasn`t in the first place, lol).

The only thing I would like is another BF S12T for bigger stages, not for more volume, but more "size" and "depth" of sound, as I prefer the sound coming from my amp behind me, not through the monitors at me. But I`m yet to actually play a stage where this is needed, I`m sure it`s more for vanity to look like I`ve got a big set-up as most of the bands we play with have the old-school gear, and I must admit, it looks great (just glad I don`t have to carry it).

Edited December 8, 2014 by Lozz196

[LukeFRC]

The bigger the stage the smaller the rig you actually need. Get big enough and a di box would be big enough

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1418071415' post='2626605']
The bigger the stage the smaller the rig you actually need. Get big enough and a di box would be big enough
[/quote]
That is my finding, at my haloween gig I could hear myself louder from the onstage sub and our log burner monitor than my own amp (its behind my upright), it sounded great too especially with the DB! I could have left my cab at home and just used the di out off my shuttlemax head or even just used my Behringer BDI21 box.

[URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/20141031_230754_zpsl6ibnv92.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/20141031_230754_zpsl6ibnv92.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[stingrayPete1977]

Not my music stand stand btw, lol

[4000]

I use a BDDI. When I need an amp I use a 1x 10 Hartke Kickback, and we regularly play festivals. Ah, the joys of a cajon.

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1418072710' post='2626639']
That is my finding, at my haloween gig I could hear myself louder from the onstage sub and our log burner monitor than my own amp (its behind my upright), it sounded great too especially with the DB! I could have left my cab at home and just used the di out off my shuttlemax head or even just used my Behringer BDI21 box.

[url="http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/20141031_230754_zpsl6ibnv92.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]

I respect a man who can carry off the flat cap / 5 string combination.

Edited December 8, 2014 by No lust in Jazz

[stingrayPete1977]

It's only possible if there is a DB in shot, lol

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1418074786' post='2626697']
I respect a man who can carry off the flat cap / 5 string combination.
[/quote]
Especially without the crutch of a music stand.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1418076156' post='2626723']

Especially without the crutch of a music stand.
[/quote]
That might even be a plectrum in my hand looking at my right hand? Terrible!

Edited December 8, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1418076463' post='2626727']
That might even be a plectrum in my hand looking at my right hand? Terrible!
[/quote]
At least you decided to leave the capo at home.

[gsgbass]

I went back to a tube head, and a 410 cab.

[fretmeister]

I've got a bit of both

I've got a Genz Shuttle 9.2 that I use alone
An Ampeg SVP-BSP Preamp that I run into a Genz Streamliner as a poweramp
and a Mesa Bass Prodigy 4:88 all valve monster.


The Ampeg Pre with a light poweramp seems to be the best of both worlds - it sounds great and isn't too much of a faff.


The Mesa is a fantastic amp, it's powerful and punchy and has huge heft - but I play with a local music trust on a Saturday, and like many educational type gigs I have to move rooms a lot (lots of different ensembles). The Mesa needs 4 or 5 minutes warm up time so I can't take that with me as I'd have to do that with every room move. It also has a cooling fan, which is NOT loud by any means.... except when backing up a solo clarinettist or a ukulele player.

(Although it has to be said, using the Mesa when playing Handel's 'Sarabande' with a full orchestra is immense!!)

So I am thinking about swapping the Mesa for something with an old fashioned solid state power amp.

[Lozz196]

Well I`ve just got in from a gig where I used an Ampeg SVT 2-PRO, with matching 810 cab. Great sound.

But then came the request from the band whose amp it was to help carry these two fully flightcased items, up 4 flights of stairs!

I`m sticking with my Barefaced Super 12T and Aguilar Tonehammer 500. Yes the Ampeg gear was nice, but I can`t be dealing with that sort of malarkey. Too old, feeble, and lazy to boot.

[scalpy]

Cheese Louise the volume some of you guys must play at- excuse me for being frank but it must be borderline insanity. Back in the day I used to play in a full bore rock band, Marshall stacks and heavy handed drummer etc but I used 410 with a 140w head, running at 8 ohms. At a recent hearing test my response to bass frequencies was below the average for my age group. I actually play bigger gigs now, including the fabled 'festival' stage size, which I take to mean outdoors on a stage you can actually move around on. Two 112 cabs is more than enough, and that again is with a drummer capable of moments of seismic proportions. The ego of the people responsible for the midrange seems paramount, if they are volume mad lunatics it causes chaos for everyone else. Been there and done that with the full stack business and not only am I convinced no one needs 500w plus and cabs capable of in excess of 100db I'm sure that it's ruining the live music scene for all concerned. In this day and age, if anyone in your audience has to shout in the ear of who they are talking too you as an musician are irresponsible. As a demographic we've been capable of producing these volume levels for 40 years and that initial generation, who haven't died before they got old have trashed hearing. The full stack is a dinosaur that should go the way of ducking witches and drilling holes in the head to cure headaches.

[JTUK]

My preferred big rig is a DB750 into DB212 and 210.
The impedence of this mini stack is around 6 ohms-ish.. so
the amp could probably do around 850w or so.
I doubt I get near half that volume ..all things considered,
as my basses aren't hot and my playing style is light but
the rig is worth it...for the good gigs.. as it puts out such
an authoritive sound and blows away my B rigs which
are class D and Neo, btw.
I think class D and Neo can be a more than a decent sound
but the prime concern for that sort of rig is weight and
easy carry. This is the selling point and the compromises
that I feel they make to get there are some way down on
a lot of players lists..
Just not mine, when it matters to me...
Class D and Neo is not about volume as you'll feel it get to those
peaks, it is more about 'authority of sound' IMO.

[Lozz196]

Yep, there was a "solidity" of sound from that Ampeg set-up that I`ve not had since my Marshall DBS7400 & VBC412 rig. But the other thing I`ve noticed, although I only set the Ampeg rig to regular volumes, as in, can hear it with the drums, my ears today feel like they`re full of cotton wool. Must be the difference in having speakers higher up I suppose, as all that was in the monitors was vocals, and all of the rest of the set-up was the same. More than makes up my mind that although I like the sound, ultimately any 810 rig is not for me, due to both my back and ears protesting the day after.

[Kevin Dean]

I use to have an Ampeg 8 x 10 & a Messa B 400 plus . I then went on to MB stuff & then a series of MB heads & a BF super twelve , the sound was still a bit thin & Hi Fi to me but my back came first . Then I got a Ashdown ABM 400 RH this with the BF is fantastic ! It sounds just like an 8 x 10 to me & moves much more air than the MB/BF set up could .

[Truckstop]

It's not a volume thing, it's a tone thing.

I think that a class A power section though lots of speakers sounds better than class D through an efficient single speaker cab. Even at lower volumes.

And it's always nice to know that you've got the headroom should you need it!

Truckstop