New rig, Decisions and advice please

[sirmuppet]

Hi all.

I've been struggling with my current rig for a while now (Orange TB500 and OBC115). I don't get the enjoyment out of it I need and am looking to change things up a bit. I find the Orange too dark. I've got some cash together and some gear to shift so I'm starting to plan what I may get.

Really I'm looking for suggestions. The tone I like is Duffs tone on this video http://youtu.be/1AjNJV8JEYU Not saying I'm a Guns fan but I like the way he plays and structures his lines along with is tone. Very similar to that sound I'm looking for. Think he's maybe using a pedal in this video. Also it's pretty similar to 3 colours reds bass tone too and I really like that.

What are my options amp (and maybe pedal) wise for getting this type of tone? Suggestions on Cabs and heads, new or used.

You can see from my signature what basses I use. Mostly it's Fender types with a PJ config. Pedal wise I Don't use anything at all but I do have a VT Bass pedal, just don't use it.

Any help would be great. Feel free to nudge me for more info if that helps.

Thanks.

Edited December 8, 2014 by sirmuppet

[discreet]

Get a P/J bass, get your VT Bass out and you'll be 95% of the way there. For the other 5%, play like Duff.

Edited December 8, 2014 by discreet

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1418051323' post='2626297']
Get a P/J bass, get your VT Bass out and you'll be 95% of the way there. For the other 5%, play like Duff.
[/quote]

Ha ha. I like it . Got the PJ basses covered with my P Bass special and Aerodyne. Just the Orange is too damn dark to get any brightness out of it. That's the issue, the amp darkens it up and ruins my enjoyment. Was also looking to get that driven tone he's getting.

[fretmeister]

Mesa Bass Prodigy 4:88 nails that tone beautifully.

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1418052750' post='2626315']
Mesa Bass Prodigy 4:88 nails that tone beautifully.
[/quote]

Oof! Just watched some videos on that and it's a lovely sounding head, good call. Then I saw how much it was, that's another oof, lol. It's good to see what everyone suggests as Mesa would never be a company I'd have looked at for the bass. Wonder what else is out there...

[Lozz196]

Duff uses GK amps, so the MB or MB Fusion would be a good way to go for this. But really you should be able to get this sound with any clean amp set flat and using the VT in front of it. I used my VT with Markbass amps and it was great, could easily get that sound. Duff also uses the MXR M80 for added grit.

I`d also look at a 410 or a 212, rather than a 115 - yes I know speaker sizes aren`t meant to have a specific sound, but hey, for the same size/weight box, you get more air being pushed, so more of the sound you want.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='sirmuppet' timestamp='1418049965' post='2626277']
... I find the Orange too dark.
[/quote]

Must admit I've never been a fan of the orange sound... along with Ashdown they just don't sound clean enough for my taste. I much prefer a cleaner amp that I can dirty up a bit with a pre if needs be. It's always better to have choice in my book and the orange heads just sound a bit one dimensional to me. Not a criticism of build quality or value, i'm sure they are on a par with any other popular brand there, but I really don't get on with the sound....

Edited December 8, 2014 by CamdenRob

[badboy1984]

I dunno i get that sort of tone when I play my P/J bass via the ashdown little bastard on the passive input. It clip hard and the aggressive tone is their lol.

[sirmuppet]

Well I think I've popped for an MXR M80. Was looking into it and I like the idea of the Preamp and then being able to blend a drive in as I feel. Something the VT bass can't do. May still keep the VT bass.

Orange does seem one sound and it's a dark sound. For finger picking I do really like the sound but 95% of the time, for me it's a pick and the Orange just isn't bright enough for me.

I'll check out the GK amps and 4x10s.

I'd just like to clarify I'm not trying to get Duffs tone or copy him in anyway. I just think the grind he gets it fantastic, so something along those lines is what I'm trying to get. So if someone suggests something slightly different to get a similar sound then I'm all for that. Here's another example of the type of tone I'm chasing: http://youtu.be/pYTPpVfzLSU Just that dirty, punty sort of bass that sounds fat without sounding muddy.

[Ant]

run the vt bass into the effects return of the orange and youll bypass the dark sounding preamp

edit: oh wait, can the VT bass drive a power amp? or is that only the VT bass DI?

Edited December 8, 2014 by Ant

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='Ant' timestamp='1418055476' post='2626347']
run the vt bass into the effects return of the orange and youll bypass the dark sounding preamp

edit: oh wait, can the VT bass drive a power amp? or is that only the VT bass DI?
[/quote]

Couldn't see anything on their site but I found this: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/tech-21-sansamp-character-series-vt-bass-v2-distortion-bass-effects-pedal Certainly suggests I can do that.

So by doing what you said an I effectively swapping the EQ section of the Orange for the VT bass (as in turning the Orange's EQ off and using the VT bass instead)?

[Ant]

yep! exactly!

by running the vt bass into the effects return of the amp you are bypassing the oranges preamp section and replacing it with the VT bass, the EQ knobs on the orange will become useless and only the master volume will work.

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='Ant' timestamp='1418056788' post='2626375']
yep! exactly!

by running the vt bass into the effects return of the amp you are bypassing the oranges preamp section and replacing it with the VT bass, the EQ knobs on the orange will become useless and only the master volume will work.
[/quote]

Wow! Never knew it could do that. So Do I need to

1. just put a patch cable from the output of the VT pedal into the return of the Orange or do I also need to Have a cable going from the send on the orange to the input on the VT pedal? Or

2. do I put a patch cable from the output of the VT pedal into the return of the Orange and put the bass into the input of the VT bass pedal?

I'm assuming point 2 is totally wrong but thought I'd check. Never used the effects loop on an amp, ever!

[Japhet]

Sounds very Gallien Kreuger to me.

[sirmuppet]

Ok, I tried. "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=4]ust put a patch cable from the output of the VT pedal into the return of the Orange or do I also need to Have a cable going from the send on the orange to the input on the VT pedal[/size][/font][/color][size=4]" and there was no real difference from putting it in front of the amps input. [/size]

[fretmeister]

DO NOT RUN THE SEND INTO THE VT PEDAL!

Preamp pedals (as opposed to drive pedals) have MASSIVE output available and you can really ruin your amp if you are going into the front of your amp using the amp preamp and then the pedal preamp as well!


BASS > PEDAL > FX RETURN on the amp. Nothing in the amp input and nothing plugged into the SEND either!

Leave your AMP gain at Zero.

you are not using the amp preamp section at all, you are swapping it for the pedal preamp. You can't run 2 preamps cascading into the power amp without really stressing the power section of your amplifier.

[hamfist]

Just looked at your signature. Your cab (OBC115) is, I think, pretty lacking in top end (I've not played one, but I understand that it is a single 15" speaker, no tweeter). You can put whatever higher frequencies into it that you like and it will not be able to reproduce them.

The VT bass is certainly capable of broken glass levels of high end.

[discreet]

[quote name='sirmuppet' timestamp='1418051920' post='2626305']
Ha ha. I like it . Got the PJ basses covered with my P Bass special and Aerodyne. Just the Orange is too damn dark to get any brightness out of it. That's the issue, the amp darkens it up and ruins my enjoyment. Was also looking to get that driven tone he's getting.
[/quote]

Seriously, get your P Bass Special out, stick it through your VT Bass and you'll nail that driven tone easily. That's what the VT Bass is for.

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1418062517' post='2626463']
DO NOT RUN THE SEND INTO THE VT PEDAL!

Preamp pedals (as opposed to drive pedals) have MASSIVE output available and you can really ruin your amp if you are going into the front of your amp using the amp preamp and then the pedal preamp as well!


BASS > PEDAL > FX RETURN on the amp. Nothing in the amp input and nothing plugged into the SEND either!

Leave your AMP gain at Zero.

you are not using the amp preamp section at all, you are swapping it for the pedal preamp. You can't run 2 preamps cascading into the power amp without really stressing the power section of your amplifier.
[/quote]

That sounds fantastic. Just tried it and it's just great. Almost the sound I want. Would need to try it at gigging volumes to see if it works but I think that's nearly spot on. Got rehearsal tonight. Gonna take my head. Dunno if I'll take the cab but I just might. Will report back but already sounding good.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1418054208' post='2626328']
Duff uses GK amps, so the MB or MB Fusion would be a good way to go for this. But really you should be able to get this sound with any clean amp set flat and using the VT in front of it. I used my VT with Markbass amps and it was great, could easily get that sound. Duff also uses the MXR M80 for added grit.

I`d also look at a 410 or a 212, rather than a 115 - yes I know speaker sizes aren`t meant to have a specific sound, but hey, for the same size/weight box, you get more air being pushed, so more of the sound you want.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I was going to say. GK will get you 100% there! Markbass + a pedal will do the same trick but with more versatility

[NancyJohnson]

Listen here:
http://www.nancyjohnson.co.uk/_2013%20Wedgie%20%28Mastered%29/01%20-%20Don%27t%20Rush%20%28Mastered%29.mp3

OK, granted the bass is a Gibson Thunderbird, I've been using a Sansamp BDDI and Sansamp RBI for recording/live. I've repeated the same process with a number of heads whilst having to use other gear when gigging and the BDDI always sounds there or thereabouts.

This recording is a BDDI straight into the audio interface. Live I run the RBI into the effects return of an Ashdown ABM. I'm a big fan of 3CR and moving to Thunderbirds was largely down to Pete Vukovic )and Mott The Hoople's Overend Watts). I sound like this all the time.
P

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1418072413' post='2626627']
Listen here:
[media]http://www.nancyjohnson.co.uk/_2013%20Wedgie%20%28Mastered%29/01%20-%20Don%27t%20Rush%20%28Mastered%29.mp3[/media]

OK, granted the bass is a Gibson Thunderbird, I've been using a Sansamp BDDI and Sansamp RBI for recording/live. I've repeated the same process with a number of heads whilst having to use other gear when gigging and the BDDI always sounds there or thereabouts.

This recording is a BDDI straight into the audio interface. Live I run the RBI into the effects return of an Ashdown ABM. I'm a big fan of 3CR and moving to Thunderbirds was largely down to Pete Vukovic )and Mott The Hoople's Overend Watts). I sound like this all the time.
P
[/quote]

That sounded fantastic! Pretty much spot on to the type of tone I'm trying to get.

Pete Vuckovic was probably the reason I started playing the bass. His basslines and tone were just perfect on the 3CR albums. I actually got a chance to ask him about his rig. The last one he used in 3CR was and Ashdown ABM500 with ABM 4x10 and 1x15 cabs. He did for a short period use an ABM 8x10. He says he got his tone by cranking the treble, a little less than full on for the bass, cutting the mids and thumping the strings as hard as he could.

I also have a thunderbird in black (just like Petes) and it's probably my favourite bass. The neck is just great, can hang it low and still play it, sounds amazing too.

I tried running my cab at rehearsal last night and it sounded a 100 times better than it has ever done. I actually found myself turning the treble down. Maybe not even enough bass. I'm just amazed at the difference. I never knew you could bypass the Preamp like that. I really owe "Ant" a few pints for suggesting it!

i've bought an MXR M80 from a Basschatter and I think I may try the Tech 21 DI you have. Have you ever used the BDDI live rather than the RBI? If so how did it compare? Also what Cab/s do you run live?

Thanks, G.

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='sirmuppet' timestamp='1418117054' post='2626899']
Have you ever used the BDDI live rather than the RBI? If so how did it compare? Also what Cab/s do you run live?

Thanks, G.
[/quote]

Live I run everything into a Hartke HyDrive 410...if I need another enclosure I have a HyDrive 115 that I can add as well.

Before I got the RBI, I used the BDDI all the time, live and studio. It's got more than enough output to drive a poweramp. About eighteen months ago I purchased VT Bass rack unit, but it didn't do it for me, so that got sold on here and I purchased the RBI, this forms the backbone of my tone. The BDDI is on a PedalTrain board with a VT Bass DI unit. I use the Pedaltrain set up for recording or where I'm having to use someone's rig at gigs.

Live, the BDDI and RBI are pretty similar - but now you have me thinking. Live, I tended to use the bass/treble controls on the BDDI whereas I tend to leave the RBI controls pretty much flat. That's something that's never really crossed my mind! You obviously have a mid cut/boost on the RBI as well (also generally flat) and a few more routing options. I tend to concentrate more on the drive and blend options rather than messing around with the tone too much. Irrespective, it's all good.

I've seen Pete V with a number of Thunderbirds...I'm almost certain that the one on the Islington DVD is a fairly rare Gothic version - these were a short run (100-150 units) and the ones that went unsold were retooled to become the Gibson Blackbird models. I've got a Gothic as well as three others. Nice bass. Whatever happened to PV? The Bassknives album was supposed to be finished years ago and it went very quiet. Seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth!

P

Edited December 9, 2014 by NancyJohnson

[sirmuppet]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1418137277' post='2627224']
Live I run everything into a Hartke HyDrive 410...if I need another enclosure I have a HyDrive 115 that I can add as well.

Before I got the RBI, I used the BDDI all the time, live and studio. It's got more than enough output to drive a poweramp. About eighteen months ago I purchased VT Bass rack unit, but it didn't do it for me, so that got sold on here and I purchased the RBI, this forms the backbone of my tone. The BDDI is on a PedalTrain board with a VT Bass DI unit. I use the Pedaltrain set up for recording or where I'm having to use someone's rig at gigs.

Live, the BDDI and RBI are pretty similar - but now you have me thinking. Live, I tended to use the bass/treble controls on the BDDI whereas I tend to leave the RBI controls pretty much flat. That's something that's never really crossed my mind! You obviously have a mid cut/boost on the RBI as well (also generally flat) and a few more routing options. I tend to concentrate more on the drive and blend options rather than messing around with the tone too much. Irrespective, it's all good.

I've seen Pete V with a number of Thunderbirds...I'm almost certain that the one on the Islington DVD is a fairly rare Gothic version - these were a short run (100-150 units) and the ones that went unsold were retooled to become the Gibson Blackbird models. I've got a Gothic as well as three others. Nice bass. Whatever happened to PV? The Bassknives album was supposed to be finished years ago and it went very quiet. Seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth!

P
[/quote]

Cool. That's some good info on the Tech 21 stuff. I'm looking at getting the VT bass DI to replace my VT bass. I like the idea of the DI option should I need it. Would you know, if I use the VT bass and not the Oranges Pre-amp, can I still use the DI on the Orange or does that not work since I bypass the Preamp.

Pete's not doing anything now. My cousin was in a bar in Camden and this guy started speaking to her. She recognised him but it didn't click for 2 weeks it was Pete. He's apparently got grey hair now but rocking it (according to her). The Bassknives kinda stopped after Pete said the album got leaked. I never saw or heard of anyone with the recording. All the guys like Paul went on to do other stuff.

He has had a few T-birds over the years, you're not wrong there, lol. I know he's had a non-reverse Epiphone, a sunburst standard, a 5 string t-bird (which he hated and only put 4 strings on it), a vintage non reverse (that he bought with his girlfriends Ebay account and won't take it out of the house). He's also got a BC Rich and used a 4003 or 4001 bass as the backup on tour to his number 1 black bass. The Black bass is a late 80's Gibson thunderbird. He used it in the Diamond Head days (when it looked new) but has gigged it to hell and back. He's broken the neck on it 3 times. You can see him using the bass on live stuff he does on the Pure a Revolt tours which pre-date the release of the Gothic. Also the jack it front mounted and not side mounted like on later T-birds. It's the same one he used on the Islington DVD. He removed the pickguard too, even exposing the hole underneath.

If you don't mind I may pick your brains a bit more regarding the Tech 21 stuff. This whole thing has really opened up so many options for me now and I dunno where to start. Like a kid and a sweetie shop [size=4] [/size]

[bassmachine2112]

Hiho,got a terror 500 and sp212 cab with a bdi21/hartke bass attack/line 6 in front of amp and it can go very cut your head off glassy as well as deep dub.
These heads love pedals/multi fx in front of them and sound good on there own.
I,m not a fan of 15" speakers for grindy,gnarly ,growly sound.12" are great and 10,s as well.
If you have presence on your pedal,give it a good crank and max the blend.Do this at gigging volume as the sound will change when you turn down.Keep the gain down to about 3/4 and use the gain on the pedal to rough it up,volume about 4,set level to unity/same volume pedal on/off.
Geddy Lee uses sansamp in front of OrangeAD200 heads,dummy load for cabs,signal out to PA and bobs yer uncle.