Bugera Veyron BV1001M

[Mcgiver69]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1438779700' post='2837175']
We seem to have a difference of opinion between the bum bum bums and the widdley widdleys.
[/quote]

Fair enough but you're still grinding

[stevie]

Aha - so you admit you're a widdley widdley!

[Ancient Mariner]

[quote name='Mcgiver69' timestamp='1438774384' post='2837077']
So you think that bass is just for playing the same bum bum bum notes and nothing more? Do you realise that Doug Wimbish is one of the most sought after session players after Pino Palladino and Victor Wooten is one of the most respected bassist around?

So this means a bass player should not push the boundaries of the instrument and just stay in the background?

I know this is your opinion and I respect it even though that kind of thinking really grinds me no end.

Rant over.....
[/quote]

See this little feller:

I suspect Doug Wimbish is a better guitarist than I am too, even though that's my main instrument. Peace feller.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1438274578' post='2833172']
Dear All,

Hello fellow bassists! I'm on the Experience Engagement team with MUSIC Group, which includes BUGERA, and I just wanted to drop in to clarify the power ratings we use on the VEYRON heads, as well as our other amplified products.

As has been indicated here, we rate our amps based on peak power output rather than RMS. To paraphrase our CEO, Uli Behringer, on the matter, this is because we, like many manufacturers, have found the traditional way of measuring RMS with a sine-wave is not necessarily the best predictor of actual amplifier performance. Since maximum power measurements are not standardized across the industry, to assume the “RMS" of the Veyron amp to be 500W based on the 2000W rating would be incorrect. You can read a full explanation of our CEO's thoughts on the topic in this thread on SoundForums.net: [url="https://soundforums.net/threads/4299-Uli-Behringer-of-The-Music-Group-Q-amp-A?p=32194&viewfull=1#post32194"]https://soundforums....ull=1#post32194[/url]

Thanks all, and let me know if you have any other questions about these amps or our other products.
[/quote]

Hi Sean

Is it possible to bypass the preamp, so I could just use it as a power amp? So for example I could hook up a guitar preamp, and use the Bugera as a power amp?

[RandomBass]

[quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1438274578' post='2833172']
Dear All,

Hello fellow bassists! I'm on the Experience Engagement team with MUSIC Group, which includes BUGERA, and I just wanted to drop in to clarify the power ratings we use on the VEYRON heads, as well as our other amplified products.

As has been indicated here, we rate our amps based on peak power output rather than RMS. To paraphrase our CEO, Uli Behringer, on the matter, this is because we, like many manufacturers, have found the traditional way of measuring RMS with a sine-wave is not necessarily the best predictor of actual amplifier performance. Since maximum power measurements are not standardized across the industry, to assume the “RMS" of the Veyron amp to be 500W based on the 2000W rating would be incorrect. You can read a full explanation of our CEO's thoughts on the topic in this thread on SoundForums.net: https://soundforums.net/threads/4299-Uli-Behringer-of-The-Music-Group-Q-amp-A?p=32194&viewfull=1#post32194

Thanks all, and let me know if you have any other questions about these amps or our other products.
[/quote]
Hi
For the sake of having a level playing field, what is the 'RMS' rating of this head?
Cheers
Geoff

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1439076924' post='2839864']

Hi
For the sake of having a level playing field, what is the 'RMS' rating of this head?
Cheers
Geoff
[/quote]
I think he just said in that post that it was 500w?

[MoonBassAlpha]

No, he said "it would be INCORRECT to assume that"

[Sean Fairchild]

Dear MacDaddy and RandomBass,

To bypass the preamp on either of the two VEYRON heads, you could plug (a sufficiently hot/pre-amplified signal) directly into the FX Loop Return, which is a direct input to the power section.

In regards to RMS and a "level playing field", well that's actually what that whole post I linked to was attempting to explain; that RMS doesn't, in and of itself, create a level playing field - it has just gotten to be a commonplace rating, albeit imperfect. However, being commonplace does not make a metric impervious to being manipulated or massaged. If you haven't checked out our CEO's thoughts on the matter in the post of his I linked to, I would encourage you to do so, to further understand the company's point of view on the matter of power ratings. I'm unable to give you an RMS rating, because my understanding is that we don't use that metric to measure output whatsoever, so that information just isn't available from our technical group for me to give to you.

All this being said, we have a great customer service/technical department called the CARE team, and if you do have any technical questions that can't be answered by the documentation available or you're curious about anything really, I invite you to reach out to them at [email protected] or by phone at +1-702-800-8290 (US) or +44 1562 732290 (UK).

As a player, I understand the desire to have everything neatly comparable to everything else, and I'll continue to try to help out any way I can with your questions and concerns. Thanks for your patience and understanding!

[tbonepete]

I can't help thinking that the RMS figure would be something the MUSIC group wouldn't want to shout about, hmmm......................

[Beer of the Bass]

This is a bit of guesswork, but it came up in a Talkbass thread that the marked power consumption on the back of the BV1001M is 110 watts. I've read that the labelling convention is to quote the power consumption at 1/8 of the rated output, which is supposed to represent typical use. The GK MB800 also quotes a figure of 110 watts for this. Might it be reasonable to presume that the output of the Bugera and GK might be comparable, since they're both Class D designs with solid state preamps and are likely to have similar efficiency?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1439239011' post='2841250']
This is a bit of guesswork, but it came up in a Talkbass thread that the marked power consumption on the back of the BV1001M is 110 watts. I've read that the labelling convention is to quote the power consumption at 1/8 of the rated output, which is supposed to represent typical use. The GK MB800 also quotes a figure of 110 watts for this. Might it be reasonable to presume that the output of the Bugera and GK might be comparable, since they're both Class D designs with solid state preamps and are likely to have similar efficiency?
[/quote]

Hmmm... my Streamliner [b]900[/b] is marked MAXIMUM AVERAGE POWER CONSUMPTION 650WATTS on the back panel.

[Beer of the Bass]

OK, maybe the labelling of power consumption isn't as standardised as I'd thought!

[tauzero]

[quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1439225034' post='2841022']
In regards to RMS and a "level playing field", well that's actually what that whole post I linked to was attempting to explain; that RMS doesn't, in and of itself, create a level playing field - it has just gotten to be a commonplace rating, albeit imperfect. However, being commonplace does not make a metric impervious to being manipulated or massaged. If you haven't checked out our CEO's thoughts on the matter in the post of his I linked to, I would encourage you to do so, to further understand the company's point of view on the matter of power ratings. I'm unable to give you an RMS rating, because my understanding is that we don't use that metric to measure output whatsoever, so that information just isn't available from our technical group for me to give to you.
[/quote]

You're conflating two things. RMS doesn't of itself imply a constant power output, it's the measurement of the integral of the voltage rather than the peak to peak value - so the peak-to-peak voltage of a sine wave is 1.414 times its RMS value, hence its peak-to-peak power is twice its RMS power, regardless of whether that's transient or constant. In fact, the test that Uli Behringer refers to in his article measures RMS voltage, so the power outputs referred to in the test are measured in RMS watts.

The trouble with the power rating given with no qualification whatsoever is that its then impossible to make any sort of comparison with other products, and there's no information from which a tester can validate the values claimed. If you were to give, say, ratings (in RMS power) of maximum constant 1kHz output (for 5 minutes), and a few burst modes at 1kHz (eg. 50mS bursts, 10% duty cycle, 500mS bursts at 50% duty cycle, 5S bursts at 50%), then the same at 50Hz and 5kHz, and give that as a table in the specs, you've established a metric and effectively challenged your competitors to be as transparent about their ratings.

[Jenny_Innie]

Power schmower. Whatever. Bottom line here is that I thought, from the manufacturer's description, that this was a genuine big-hitting class D head - with 2000 watts!!!

OMG I thought. That's headroom in spades. And at a bargain price. I thought I'd maybe get one and use it when I needed some [size=6]real[/size] power.

Turns out, it's just a class D 400 watt odd device - just like the rest. And probably not a great quality one either.

Thank you to the marketing guy at Bugera for your deliberate dissemble. I won't be buying or thinking about one ever again.

[stevie]

Sean, how does your CEO justify the 2000 watt power rating for the Bugera 1x15" cab? There are industry-wide standards for speakers. Which ones is your company using here?

[Sean Fairchild]

Dear tauzero,

Thank you for educating us all a bit (well, me, anyway). I appreciate that we all want the ability to compare items to each other in the best way possible, and I hope that some convention that's more of a true test of an amp's power, especially for us bassists (How often do we play an extended 1kHz sine wave?), becomes widely adopted. I like the suggestions you made of doing bursts at 50Hz, specifically.

Dear Jenny Innie,

That's not very polite. I am not the company itself, but a person and a player, and what I can offer is the information the my company provides on the matter, which may not be as cut and dry as you think. I can't say it's a 400 W head; I can't say it's a 500 W head - all I can do is offer the information I do have, and provide a means of at least discussing more with our CARE team (please see contact info in post above). I'm certainly not trying to confuse the issue, my point in chiming in was that it's not accurate or fair to say that the VEYRON amps are simply XXX-Watt RMS heads. Thanks for your understanding.

Dear stevie,

The speakers we make and use on our bass cabs are also rated using max power ratings, but here's another industry issue - maximum thermal ratings are generally used in the industry for drivers, which is already a problematic metric, because speakers will perform poorly well before they reach this maximal point. But in an effort to use the same metric that most other manufacturers use or at least specify, the company has decided to use the peak wattage thermal rating of our speakers as well, so you can compare peak wattage across brands/products.

Thanks all for the questions, I'll keep endeavoring to assist as I can

[Beer of the Bass]

Sean, if you're feeling confident in your product might be a good idea to offer one to Bass Gear magazine for review and testing, as they regularly publish bench test results alongside their reviews. While their testing is probably not done to certified standards, they are at least consistent and transparent about their process and incorporate burst testing. It would allow prospective buyers to compare the output to other popular amps on a more level playing field and I for one would be quite interested in seeing that.
[url="http://www.bassgearmag.com/"]http://www.bassgearmag.com/[/url]

[Sean Fairchild]

Dear Beer of the Bass,

Great name, BTW. I am a big fan of Bass Gear Mag and their tests. I have found some of the previous ones to be very surprising. I actually talked to one of their people at NAMM either this last winter show or the one before about the possibility of getting them a head to try out and test. I will suggest it once again!

[stevie]

[quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1439399391' post='2842512']
The speakers we make and use on our bass cabs are also rated using max power ratings, but here's another industry issue - maximum thermal ratings are generally used in the industry for drivers, which is already a problematic metric, because speakers will perform poorly well before they reach this maximal point. But in an effort to use the same metric that most other manufacturers use or at least specify, the company has decided to use the peak wattage thermal rating of our speakers as well, so you can compare peak wattage across brands/products.

Thanks all for the questions, I'll keep endeavoring to assist as I can
[/quote]

Could point us in the direction of another bass cab manufacturer who uses peak power ratings that are equivalent to yours? What do you mean by peak power, by the way? Could you be specific?

[Sean Fairchild]

Dear stevie,

Most speaker manufacturers will supply an RMS and a peak wattage handling capacity for speakers. See the example in the specs for this Aguilar cab, here: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/aguilar-sl-112-1x12-bass-speaker-cabinet

I'm not well enough equipped to explain the nuances of thermal power ratings, but I'm sure you'll be able to find what you need in terms of further description, if you're inclined to research it. Peak power is the maximum thermal rating; it's the highest amount of energy a specific speaker is designed to accept and withstand. Notice how that Aguilar speaker lists an RMS and a peak wattage. In this case, the peak rating is twice the RMS rating, but that's not always the case. Also note that in speaker cabs with multiple drivers, the power handling capacity is added up to create the total handling capacity of the cab (i.e., a 4x10 might be rated at 1,000 Watts, but each speaker only at 250 W).

This should allow you to compare peak power ratings across speaker brands. If a cabinet manufacturer doesn't list the peak power but you know what types of speakers they use (few companies make their own, as MUSIC Group does), you can generally find that info online by just searching for the type of speaker itself; Celestion, Faital, Eminence, etc.

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1439399391' post='2842512']
Dear Jenny Innie,

That's not very polite. I am not the company itself, but a person and a player, and what I can offer is the information the my company provides on the matter, which may not be as cut and dry as you think. I can't say it's a 400 W head; I can't say it's a 500 W head - all I can do is offer the information I do have, and provide a means of at least discussing more with our CARE team (please see contact info in post above). I'm certainly not trying to confuse the issue, my point in chiming in was that it's not accurate or fair to say that the VEYRON amps are simply XXX-Watt RMS heads. Thanks for your understanding.

[/quote]

Dear Sean

Bottom line is your product name is misleading as is the assertion that it is a 2000W amp. Nothing to do with being polite. It's poor practice if you ask me.

[VTypeV4]

Why do always wind up arguing the toss about the numbers with amps like this (like the TC etc) when there's no standardisation we can use as a reference point anyways? Waste of time.

I like Crown amplifiers for pro-audio but their ratings seem quite flakey when you read the small-print of burst power and use specific tones / noise. At the other end of the scale, in reletave terms, my valve amps make no power at all (my largest is a claimed 200w) but none of it matters. Why? Because if you compare manufacturer specific models against each other -even if they're doubling their claimed power- it's still only 3dB off. And when you try to compare company A's '300w model' against company B's '300w model' - depending on how they're rated - there may well be a much greater difference than that.

And I'm not even mentioning speakers and their sensitivity, power handling / rating, frequency response, power compression etc etc here.

The watts argument is redundant.

Question A.. Can you dial a decent sound out of the amp? If yes move to question B. If no try a different amp / model

Question B.. Will the amplifier play loud enough through your choice of speaker for your requirements? If yes, you win! If not
do they make the same pre-amp with a much larger power stage and / or buy some more speakers.

Simple as that, surely?

I've never bought any amplifier (bass, pro-audio, hi-fi or reference) simply on it's rating and I believe to do so would be folly. We always seem to go round in circles about these things.

Rant over.

Not quite, sorry. The people that have used this amp (according to this thread at least) actually like the amp whether it's rated for 20w or 20Mw..

Edited August 14, 2015 by VTypeV4

[mcnach]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1439513187' post='2843552']
Not quite, sorry. The people that have used this amp (according to this thread at least) actually like the amp whether it's rated for 20w or 20Mw..
[/quote]

and that's the interesting conclusion so far.
That is more valuable to me, as an indication whether I'd like to try it or not, than someone throwing a hissy fit about how numbers are reported and/or leaving the room "I'll never buy from you, oh you horrible horrible people!"

I have owned some Behringer gear over the years too, and I personally never ever had an issue at all regarding their performance or longevity. IN fact, the first amp head to die on me was a TC RH450... heh.

Yes, I can't wait for the day when there is a standard that actually means something... but until then... take the numbers with a pinch of salt and pay attention to the reviews. Then, if still attractive, go and try one in person.

[Beer of the Bass]

TBH I can only think of a couple of occasions where a GK MB200 has seemed underpowered for me, so my main priorities in choosing an amp would be whether it was solidly built, dependable and had a pleasing voicing with the EQ centres in useful places.

[Chienmortbb]

tauzero is correct on most things but 1.414 is the peak (not peak to peak) of RMS. However if you are working peak power then it is twice RMS as both the voltage and current peaks are 1.414 time the voltage and current of RMS. So. 500 Watts RMS is 1000 Watts peak.
I think Bergera have missed a trick here because had they marketed this premium range as 500 Watt amps, people would probably rave about them rather than dispute the rather vague specs.

For what its worth I think they are beautiful looking amps.




.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Chienmortbb