Phil Starr Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1438274578' post='2833172'] Dear All, Hello fellow bassists! I'm on the Experience Engagement team with MUSIC Group, which includes BUGERA, and I just wanted to drop in to clarify the power ratings we use on the VEYRON heads, as well as our other amplified products. As has been indicated here, we rate our amps based on peak power output rather than RMS. To paraphrase our CEO, Uli Behringer, on the matter, this is because we, like many manufacturers, have found the traditional way of measuring RMS with a sine-wave is not necessarily the best predictor of actual amplifier performance. Since maximum power measurements are not standardized across the industry, to assume the “RMS" of the Veyron amp to be 500W based on the 2000W rating would be incorrect. You can read a full explanation of our CEO's thoughts on the topic in this thread on SoundForums.net: [url="https://soundforums.net/threads/4299-Uli-Behringer-of-The-Music-Group-Q-amp-A?p=32194&viewfull=1#post32194"]https://soundforums....ull=1#post32194[/url] Thanks all, and let me know if you have any other questions about these amps or our other products. [/quote] Hi Sean, first of all welcome to BassChat, it's always great to engage with people from the industry. Music Group people are popping up all over the place and I hope it is a trend that will continue. I hope that you are part of a process that feeds back to your design and marketing teams so that we customers can get the products they want at the prices you tend to offer. [quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1439225034' post='2841022'] In regards to RMS and a "level playing field", well that's actually what that whole post I linked to was attempting to explain; that RMS doesn't, in and of itself, create a level playing field - it has just gotten to be a commonplace rating, albeit imperfect. If you haven't checked out our CEO's thoughts on the matter in the post of his I linked to, I would encourage you to do so, to further understand the company's point of view on the matter of power ratings. I'm unable to give you an RMS rating, because my understanding is that we don't use that metric to measure output whatsoever, so that information just isn't available from our technical group for me to give to you. [/quote] Well RMS is of course open to manipulation, but it remains the best basis for comparison for amplifiers particularly if one of the industry standards for measurement are adopted and the standard used is published with the ratings. RMS isn't just a bit of advertising speak it is a mathematical calculation used in the design of any equipment using alternating voltages. It is inconceivable that your engineers would have started the design of an amplifier without having a design spec, and the supply rail voltage and current capability of the power supply and critical components would have been decided on this basis. It is vanishingly improbable that they wouldn't have bench tested the design before moving to production and that production units are not regularly tested to see that they meet spec. Your engineers know the RMS output of these amps intimately. [quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1437179547' post='2824339'] To anyone curious, I emailed Bugera asking what the rms for this head was. They said it's 500w at 4 ohms. [/quote] There you are Bugera do know. [quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1438274578' post='2833172'] As has been indicated here, we rate our amps based on peak power output rather than RMS. To paraphrase our CEO, Uli Behringer, on the matter, this is because we, like many manufacturers, have found the traditional way of measuring RMS with a sine-wave is not necessarily the best predictor of actual amplifier performance. Since maximum power measurements are not standardized across the industry, to assume the “RMS" of the Veyron amp to be 500W based on the 2000W rating would be incorrect. You can read a full explanation of our CEO's thoughts on the topic in this thread on SoundForums.net: [url="https://soundforums.net/threads/4299-Uli-Behringer-of-The-Music-Group-Q-amp-A?p=32194&viewfull=1#post32194"]https://soundforums....ull=1#post32194[/url] [/quote] [quote name='Sean Fairchild' timestamp='1439399391' post='2842512'] I appreciate that we all want the ability to compare items to each other in the best way possible, and I hope that some convention that's more of a true test of an amp's power. I'm certainly not trying to confuse the issue, my point in chiming in was that it's not accurate or fair to say that the VEYRON amps are simply XXX-Watt RMS heads. Thanks for your understanding. Thanks all for the questions, I'll keep endeavoring to assist as I can [/quote] You see this isn't true, and I'm not accusing you personally of anything other than good faith, particularly as you say you are not a technical person but your company doesn't publish any details we can use to research your products. You may not be trying to confuse the issue but Bugera are. You refer to Uli Behringer as setting the policy but that isn't right either. Behringer amps, like yours are marketed on inflated peak power ratings but their website and literature are models of good practice in giving plenty of good information. RMS power ratings are given at stated distortion levels and details of the testing procedures are all available freely from Behringer. Before I wrote this I researched this amp, in all your ads, videos and sales pitches you repeatedly claim you have a 2000W amp, but as we know from your own technical people it is a 500W amp (with probably some limitations from the power supply that means this itself won't be continuous). Bugera are the only part of Music Group that does this. It looks like you have something to hide, that you can't be trusted. This is slightly bonkers, a 500W amp with what seems from the reviews to be well built and with a decent sound at a price which is as good or better than anything else in it's class isn't something to be embarrassed about. It's an interesting amp you could be hampering with poor marketing. The only reason for giving peak figures is to confuse the customer. I can see why in the short term it is in the interests of a company to twist reality but if you want to build trust and a long term relationship then you need to get back to your marketing teams and get the data you have out there. Your customers clearly want this, other parts of Music Group know that and give the information that Bugera keep hidden. Jennie Innie wasn't being rude, just saying what we are all thinking. Edited August 15, 2015 by Phil Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 +1 to all the above. Complete sense spoken on a Basschat thread -this could be a first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1439592682' post='2844325'] tauzero is correct on most things but 1.414 is the peak (not peak to peak) of RMS. However if you are working peak power then it is twice RMS as both the voltage and current peaks are 1.414 time the voltage and current of RMS. So. 500 Watts RMS is 1000 Watts peak. [/quote] I thought that's what I said: "the peak-to-peak voltage of a sine wave is 1.414 times its RMS value, hence its peak-to-peak power is twice its RMS power" Power = V^2 / R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I think some manufacturers quote a burst or "program" RMS (which is usually about 2x continuous RMS) and then quote peak as the peak-to-peak of that burst capability, thus their "peak" rating is around x4 their continuous RMS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1439790275' post='2845697'] I think some manufacturers quote a burst or "program" RMS (which is usually about 2x continuous RMS) and then quote peak as the peak-to-peak of that burst capability, thus their "peak" rating is around x4 their continuous RMS. [/quote] The burst type rating used to be called (possibly still is) "music power" in hi-fi systems, and, as you say, was generally double the constant rating, and it was generally "peak music power" therefore four times the constant RMS rating. There's some "measurement" called PMPO that can be found on some Ebay auctions for PC speakers. As 200W PMPO is apparently 4W RMS, that's quite a conversion factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1439683016' post='2845028'] I thought that's what I said: "the peak-to-peak voltage of a sine wave is 1.414 times its RMS value, hence its peak-to-peak power is twice its RMS power" Power = V^2 / R [/quote] Best not mention the power factor !!. Ooops - just did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1439683016' post='2845028'] I thought that's what I said: "the peak-to-peak voltage of a sine wave is 1.414 times its RMS value, hence its peak-to-peak power is twice its RMS power" Power = V^2 / R [/quote]Sorry to hijack the thread buy. Peak is 1.414 * RMS in voltage or current. Most people multiply the two together to get RMS watt (slightly wrong but hehe). So at 100W into 8R (R is the correct abbreviation for Ohms) the voltage is 28.25V and current is 3.54A. Multiply each by 1.414 and we get a Voltage of 39.94V and a current of 5.0A. multiply one by the other and you get just shy ot 200W so double. Peak to Peak is twice peak so gives gives 80V * !0A and so 800Watts. Easy to see how the marketing department can get excited. Edited August 18, 2015 by Chienmortbb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Fairchild Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Hi all, I know this is an old thread at this point. I just wanted to let you know that as of tomorrow, I'm no longer an agent of MUSIC Group/Behringer/Bugera, and as this account is tied to my work email address, won't be getting notified of additional responses. You can reach someone at MG at [email protected] if you have any future questions or concerns. I'm not too hard to find if you look me up by name - this account name is my real one - in case you want to get in touch for any reason. I'm now able to speak much more freely on any topic, which is a great thing. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1439903229' post='2846624'] Sorry to hijack the thread buy. Peak is 1.414 * RMS in voltage or current. Most people multiply the two together to get RMS watt (slightly wrong but hehe). So at 100W into 8R (R is the correct abbreviation for Ohms) the voltage is 28.25V and current is 3.54A. Multiply each by 1.414 and we get a Voltage of 39.94V and a current of 5.0A. multiply one by the other and you get just shy ot 200W so double. Peak to Peak is twice peak so gives gives 80V * !0A and so 800Watts. Easy to see how the marketing department can get excited. [/quote] I have the Veyron Tube and I think this assessment is spot on. This amp is WAY more powerful than my Ampeg PF500 which I've had to test recently at full volume and gain. Basically the Buggerer sounds the same as the full volume Ampeg at half volume/gain, and if I ramp it up to full it sounds similar to my BVV3000 at full power (and as we all know 300 valve watts equals 3 time the amount of transistor watts) so 800/900w sounds right to me. Great tonal variation and versatility as well plus it looks gorgeous and is very affordable. This amp is bloody amazing and I can take it with me wherever I go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) Sorry to resurrect this thread but I have just read the spec on these and it is quoted to consume 110W at 1/8 power. So Max power consumption (not output) is 880W. If we take the M version, that probably has an efficiency of approx 85% (assuming both power supply and power amp being are over 95%. I am giving Behringer the benefit of the doubt here.). Then the real power output is a tad short of 750W. Now it ain't the 2000W the Uli's bad-boys claim but it is a powerful amp. Even with a more realistic overall efficiency of about 80% the max output power is over 700W. Of course we have to add the caveat that there are no distortion figures but it should output some serious power. I have also realised a slight bias in the way people (including me) view baked in compression. It is seen as a good thing in valve/tube amps where is is merely a chariteristic of the valves. In solid state devices it is often mocked despite the fact that it is probably this valve compression that gives the impression that valve watts > solid-state watts. Edited September 26, 2018 by Chienmortbb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Money where your mouth is time. I have one of these arriving on Tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzaboy Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chienmortbb said: Money where your mouth is time. I have one of these arriving on Tuesday. Cool. Was looking at one of these, be good to hear your thoughts. Edited September 29, 2018 by jezzaboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewblack Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 19 hours ago, Chienmortbb said: Money where your mouth is time. I have one of these arriving on Tuesday. Where did you find it? I can find anywhere has them in stock... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 I got the last one on Gear4Music but trey still had some of those with th e valve preamp in stock but I see they are now shown as available to order on both showing end of year as likely availability. https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Bugera-Veyron-BV1001M-2000W-Bass-Amp-Head/1WNV Mine is shown as being delivered Tuesday and I will do. NAD thread when I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 £208 new? Blimey Charlie, that's 'bung it in the bag Standby amp' money... 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewblack Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Amazon have a couple returns sub 200 quid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Wish I had looked there first. It won't take long till it looks used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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