Adding a new cab to my setup, what watt what watt?

[dumelow]

Hey,

Wondering if someone could help with this.

I have an Ampeg portaflex 500 head, which is currently pushing 350w through my 8ohm 600watt ashdown abm115 cab. If i was to add another 8ohm cab, the head would be pushing 500w through 4 ohm, correct? My question is, what should the minimum wattage on my new cab be in order for the setup to have no problems?

Hope this made sense,

Ta

[Lozz196]

Best thing to do would be get the same cab again. That way equal power to equal wattage, then for smaller gigs rehearsals only take one cab, bigger gigs add the second, no need to re-eq each time - which would be more than likely with any other cab, even another 115.

But in answer to the specific question, 250 is the minimum, as each cab will get 250 going to it.

[dumelow]

thanks for your response, so it splits the 500w between the two cabs? Ah, I understand now. I would get the same cab again but im really after a 2x10" to compliment the 1x15" i have at the moment.

Spot on though, thanks

[Truckstop]

The best thing to complement your 1x15 is to add another 1x15! If possible, get the exact same cab, you'll sound amazing

Truckstop

[dumelow]

Ah right, why is this? With my current speaker setup I feel like Im losing a lot of top end and it isnt quite cutting through. Another bass player borrowed my rig a few weeks back and recommended I bought a 4x10 or 2x10 to compliment the 1x15? I always thought a 2x15" rig was quite uncommon?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Mixing drivers is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're going to get.
If you don't like the sound of your current cab get out shopping, try as many as you can, buy the one you like the best. If one doesn't go loud enough buy two.

[chris_b]

As you've got the 15 you could add a 210.

That [i]could[/i] work, I played through a Mesa Boogie 115 and 210 rig for years and it was fine.

But, always be prepared for the mix not to work. Then you could sell the 15 and get another 210.

On the other hand I'd recommend you sell the 15 right now and get a 212 cab. IMO, they are the best "does it all" pub gig cab out there.

[Truckstop]

If you're losing top end then you need to look at your EQ rather than complicating your set-up. 10" speakers won't magically make high frequencies appear. It's a myth that smaller speakers have a high-end emphasis.

Personally, I don't like mixing speaker sizes. I think at higher volumes it can get quite muddy.

If you don't like your tone at the moment, then I'd recommend selling the ABM and getting a new cab altogether. If you're lacking high end, perhaps try experimenting with strings or EQ before shifting gear around!

Truckstop

[JTUK]

Not sure about the abm range of 210's so don't know if it would solve your problems
but in general, I'd have no problem adding a 210 to add the higher end to a 115 with
'matched' cabs...

But if you don't really like the 115 from that maker...I'd not be confident that a 210 will
rescue it... so on balance, I'd sell it and get cabs that you do like better.

[dumelow]

Its not that i dont like the sound/tone that the cab is giving me, it jus seems like a lot of the sound is real low frequency that doesnt seem to travel across a room like it should. To me, this is great cause you can often 'feel' the bass while im playing but i was recommended a 2x10 cab to add definition, rather than change the sound.

Also, thinking about it, how is 250w coming out of two speakers louder than 350w coming out of one? Seems odd? Would a single 4ohm cab be louder than 2x 8ohm cabs?

Edited December 15, 2014 by dumelow

[Truckstop]

Well, that depends on the efficiency of the speakers involved. Wattage is actually a poor indicator of how loud something's going to be. A well designed, efficient enclosure with a 10" 100w driver might be louder than a 15" 200w driver in a poorly designed enclosure.

Different drivers also have different frequency emphasis. If you have speakers with a strong mid-range emphasis, it'll sound 'louder' than a similar speaker with a lower frequency emphasis because the one that pushes the mid range is reproducing frequencies that are easier for us to hear, but might not actually be 'louder'.

This is why it's good to experiment and to rely on your ears to tell you if something's wrong. If a cab is struggling with a signal that's too strong for it you'll hear it distorting before it melts and blows up. You can totally run a 1000w amp through a 100w cab. You just have to listen and make sure that you're not trying to put too much volume through the drivers. If you hear it distorting then turn down!

This is why it's best to use two identical cabs if you use a multi-cab rig. If one cab is ultra efficient then it might mask damage being done to the other less efficient cab. Cabs don't come with volume controls, you can't match them properly! You might end up with one cab that's being ragged to without an inch of its life every night and the other cab's hardly working.

Good luck!

Alex

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='dumelow' timestamp='1418646485' post='2631925']
Its not that i dont like the sound/tone that the cab is giving me, it jus seems like a lot of the sound is real low frequency that doesnt seem to travel across a room like it should. To me, this is great cause you can often 'feel' the bass while im playing but i was recommended a 2x10 cab to add definition, rather than change the sound...
[/quote]

I think the low end disperstion will be more about the position of the cab in the room. There's a few things to consider and here's a great article about it: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/uploads/BGM58,%20Sep2010.pdf"]http://barefacedbass.com/uploads/BGM58,%20Sep2010.pdf[/url]

On the definition issue - Frequencies get more directional the higher they get. This means your higher frequencies will currently be blasted into the back of your knees and not making it to your ears! (presuming you put the 1x15 on the floor).

A 2nd identical cab will bring the higher frequencies closer to your ears as well as physically 'coupling' with the 1st cab to make things louder/better in general.

Hope that helps a little more?

[Lozz196]

Yep, two 115s stacked will have a good amount of presence. Yes they may be lacking on crystal clear highs, but being higher up you`ll hear the whole sound better, and having two, you can lose some of the low frequencies and the bass will still have a great presence - after all, good bass in the mix is all about the mids, and the PF500 has some very nice mid options.

A good way to find out which is going to work best though is, funds allowing, order both another identical 115, and the 210 from the same range online. Take advantage of distant selling regs, all three cabs to rehearsal, decide which set-up is best, and return the cab you don`t want (usually within a specified period).

I`ve had a few 115/210 stacks and both have been great. My preference though is for all the same.

[JTUK]

Have to say that 2x115 sounds like a recipe for disaster in terms of getting any top out of them. IMO
You think one is lacking so apart from adding a second and it being close to your ear so YOU can hear it,
that isn't going to help out in the room..at all, IMO. You need higher frequencies being produced to do that
and 15's don't typically have them.
As for low end dispertion.... low end bass gets everywhere, you can't target or focus it.

Edited December 16, 2014 by JTUK

[xgsjx]

I think this is more to do with the cab's spec & the characteristics of the driver, than the diameter.
I had Celestian loaded Marshall 15s some yonks ago. Didn't lack mids or top end, but had nowhere near the lows of what the 10s in the MarkBass produce.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dumelow' timestamp='1418646485' post='2631925']
i was recommended a 2x10 cab to add definition, rather than change the sound.
[/quote]Said recommendation did not come from an informed source. There is no difference in 'definition' based on driver size. The only dfference attributable to driver size alone is the dispersion angle of the mids and highs. Those telling you that tens have better 'definition' than fifteens probably don't know even what dispersion is, let alone how it is defined by driver size.

That doesn't mean that you might not find a different cab that does have better definition than your current cab, just that definition and driver size are not related. One of the worst drivers made as far as definition is concerned is the Eminence BP102 ten, one of the best ever made was the Electro-Voice EVM 15B fifteen.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1418671394' post='2632222']
Yep, two 115s stacked will have a good amount of presence.
[/quote]

It's especially important to have presence at Xmas.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1418737421' post='2632809']
It's especially important to have presence at Xmas.
[/quote]

Darth Vader may have already felt them............................

[Dood]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1418737421' post='2632809']


It's especially important to have presence at Xmas.
[/quote]

Ahh yes, the Thiele Small parameter 'they' never specify!

[sirmuppet]

I'll jump in on this one. I had a similar issue with my Orange rig. I liked the low end but the top end was just not there, no matter what I tried. So I thought I'd get another rig and posted a thread recently about options. Some nice and informed people told me to bypass the preamp by going via the effects loop. You'd need a preamp pedal like what I'm using (Tech 21 VT bass) but the difference was amazing. I found my 1x15 could produce those highs and it was the preamp causing the issues. I'll look the thread up so you can so the similar problems I had and the suggestions to solve it.

[sirmuppet]

Here you go: http://basschat.co.uk/topic/251016-new-rig-decisions-and-advice-please/

Honestly it got me exactly the tone I wanted. Obviously you may not want the same tone as me but using a preamp pedal and going via the effects loop could be cheaper than buying another cab.