Questions for low action players

[Twincam]

Playing with low action is like making love to a beautiful women.
Something i know nothing about! haha.

In an effort to refine my playing further, i found that 2 of the problems i have is i still pluck to hard and i fret way to hard and get a lot of fretting noise. So i have lowered my action a fair bit from the fairly standard 2.4mm at the 17th fret to 1.5mm which is the lowest i have played but i know some play lower still. In affect im forcing myself to be gentle and not get carried away.

My Questions are. Have you always played with low action and it just came naturally or did you have to work at it?. If you had to work at it, in general how long would you say it taken you to become accustomed to the lower action. I have only spent a few hours at it but i feel drained from the concentration required.

I know about turning up the amp, and trying to relax while playing. But is there more i can be doing other than practice?.
Oh and to add i also raised my pickups so they act a little bit like ramps.

[HowieBass]

1.5mm is very low if that's for the E string at the 17th (that's under 4/64") so it's no wonder you're getting a lot of fret noise. 2.5mm is about 6/64" which is what I go for on the E and 2mm or 5/64" for the G at the 17th. I'm really not sure what the big deal is about getting the action as low as possible; if you have normal strength in your fretting hand and the strings aren't really high tension then you should be fine without having to set the action really low.

[neepheid]

I'm not saying anyone's wrong for it but I don't understand this attention to detail with regard to action and to a lesser extent, relief. When I set up my bass I wind the saddles down until I start to get rattle/fret buzz when I pluck how I do, then I raise them until that goes away. I don't know if I have high action or low action, I've got the action which is appropriate for how I play bass.

Regarding relief, bass strings need some room to oscillate. So I give 'em some. The neck isn't flat, and it isn't a banana either. If I had to guess it was about a mm, maybe slightly over.

Edited December 16, 2014 by neepheid

[Twincam]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1418688903' post='2632455']
1.5mm is very low if that's for the E string at the 17th (that's under 4/64") so it's no wonder you're getting a lot of fret noise. 2.5mm is about 6/64" which is what I go for on the E and 2mm or 5/64" for the G at the 17th. I'm really not sure what the big deal is about getting the action as low as possible; if you have normal strength in your fretting hand and the strings aren't really high tension then you should be fine without having to set the action really low.
[/quote]

Just to clear this up. I get fretting noise from my fretting hand mainly as i seem to really come down on the string. This is no matter what action height unless it is really high. So im playing lower to try and force train my hands to be gentle. When playing gentle im not getting as much noise but im finding gentle playing hard going.

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1418689401' post='2632461']
I'm not saying anyone's wrong for it but I don't understand this attention to detail with regard to action and to a lesser extent, relief. When I set up my bass I wind the saddles down until I start to get rattle/fret buzz when I pluck how I do, then I raise them until that goes away. I don't know if I have high action or low action, I've got the action which is appropriate for how I play bass.

Regarding relief, bass strings need some room to oscillate. So I give 'em some. The neck isn't flat, and it isn't a banana either. If I had to guess it was about a mm, maybe slightly over.
[/quote]

1 mm relief is alot of relief!. often 0.5mm relief is a bit too much. I have been anal about setting the bass up, its set up really nicely no buzzing etc, you just have to be more gentle with it. Which im hoping will refine my technique. At the moment i hate the way i play, to much effort wasted.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Twincam

[neepheid]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1418690078' post='2632464']
1 mm relief is alot of relief!. often 0.5mm relief is a bit too much. I have been anal about setting the bass up, its set up really nicely no buzzing etc, you just have to be more gentle with it. Which im hoping will refine my technique. At the moment i hate the way i play, to much effort wasted.
[/quote]

Like I said, I'm guessing, don't quote me on that, basses are upstairs and I'm comfy downstairs, trying to visualise them in my mind's eye - never the most reliable ruler or feeler gauge

I'm pretty happy with how I play, the only thing I've got half a mind on is how much effort is spent on lateral movement - trying to stick to one finger per fret where possible and all that. That's wasted effort to me. When I started, it was a desperate case of get to the right fret on time, regardless of how I did it. Now that I've been playing for a few years I've tuned a lot of that out, but there's still a ways to go yet.

[JTUK]

You can't have heavy hands with a low action.... it makes you play clean, which only you can
decide is a good thing. I went down this route when I heard myself solo'd in the studio and it was sooo noisey.
..and bloddy awful, tbh... did I hate it..!!!
Some players make a feature of it but I suspect the engr doesn't appreciate the time it might take to clean up
some of the heavier handed tracks...
The plus side of playing light is that you don't beat up your hands so much... not a problem now so much but maybe after 30 years
or so... and you can get more nuance into your playing, typically. The down side is you need more headroom in your
amp...and if you DO have to dig in, that serverely compromises what you can play, especially when the volume rises.

If you have the action close to choking and you can't keep it clean...you aren't tidy enough..it is that simple. So maybe you need to set the
action at a height where you can play it without fret noise.

[CamdenRob]

Is everyone else actually measuring their action... to the milimeter? it all sounds very scientific... I'm from the "lower it, then raise it until it doesn't buzz anymore" school of bass set up

I reckon I should learn a bit more about it actually as the action on my bass is pretty high, not that it's an issue but I hate fret clank or any sort of buzz. I guess I could be missing out on making my basses slightly more comfortable...

[HowieBass]

I do measure mine but then I have that sort of approach to setting my basses up (I suppose it's the science training background) and I really enjoy the process (setting the right amount of relief so there's no unwanted fret buzz, getting notes ringing out with no choking, getting intonation spot on all the way up the neck). I'd happily set anyone's bass up for free... but that's just me. Each to their own if it makes their basses eminently playable.

[chris_b]

You don't need a low action to refine your playing. Low action is just another style of playing and as a technique is neither better or worse than any other style.

The main thing about playing a low action is you have to have a lot of control. You probably need to develop that control first, then you can start dropping the strings.

If you can't stop getting carried away or over excited when you play take the action back up. It won't stop you refining your technique and many very good players have used high action.

[JTUK]

No, I can't be arsed to measure it... but it is low. A grtr friend on mine said there are lower than his Ibanezes..???
All I know is that they are set up for me... and both about the same. I'll need to adjust the action probably twice
a year due to seasonal changes ..but not a neck tweak, mostly. They will mostly choke if I am slouching on the sofa
noddling and therefore leaning back.
Both basses set up the same with the same gaunge string from the same maker.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1418719008' post='2632534']
You can't have heavy hands with a low action.... it makes you play clean, which only you can
decide is a good thing.[/quote]
+1

Not all basses can do low action. Getting low action without fret buzz is possible but only with stiff necks (composite/laminated with reinforcement) or necks that have had their fingerboards dressed after refrets a number of times as the wood in the neck has stabilised over 20 years or so.

The reason why you're getting buzz could be as much down to the level of the fingerboard and frets as much as anything. Don't beat yourself up about technique when the cause might be something else.

[Beer of the Bass]

I've tried taking it as low as possible and just don't get on with it. My problem is not fret buzz, but my right hand plucking technique usually involves my finger coming to rest on the adjacent string (like a classical guitar rest stroke) and if the action is too low, I cause the lower string to clack against the frets. Both my basses have narrow string spacing, so that may have something to do with it.

[Twincam]

The particular bass in question is just a old squier p bass. Mind you i have leveled the frets myself, replaced and cut the nut. and it is very well set up by yours truly. Zero fret buzz and i mean that just a little gentle rattle but its helped by the high tension and worn in flatwounds. it does take a lot of mental effort to play well ive found.

I do normally play with a higher action than this. But i don't think i sound good with the higher action, im louder and maybe have better overall tone, but what happens is when i pluck hard then my fretting hand will fret down hard in sympathy with my right hand, and this combo gives off all sorts of overtones. Also i failed to mention im not fully recovered from tendinitis i developed in my fretting hand months back, so im hoping it will help with that too.

[Lw.]

I must admit I find a couple of things odd with conversations like this; firstly I don't really understand the obsession with low action, but I guess that's just personal preference for feel & tone.

But really; how do people think lowering the action makes their technique better? In my mind if anything it'll make it worse as you're stroking the strings rather than plucking them & your fretting hand can be less accurate because there's less side movement before the string touches the board. Once a string has been fretted cleanly what difference does it make if you press a little harder (in my mind once it's fretted it's fretted)?

Not having a go, just curious as it seems like my understanding of how it works is different to others....

[Twincam]

[quote name='Lw.' timestamp='1418725750' post='2632635']
I must admit I find a couple of things odd with conversations like this; firstly I don't really understand the obsession with low action, but I guess that's just personal preference for feel & tone.

But really; how do people think lowering the action makes their technique better? In my mind if anything it'll make it worse as you're stroking the strings rather than plucking them & your fretting hand can be less accurate because there's less side movement before the string touches the board. Once a string has been fretted cleanly what difference does it make if you press a little harder (in my mind once it's fretted it's fretted)?

Not having a go, just curious as it seems like my understanding of how it works is different to others....
[/quote]

Ok right this thread has slightly went off topic of why i posted it. See my questions in the original post.
And we have got into a discussion on action height. Which oddly enough now has more posts in than my actual thread on action height that i had not long back lol.

Ok i feel a lower action will improve my cack handed and heavy handed approach which is actually much better these days but still needs work. As i can if i wanted make 5mm action buzz im pretty heavy handed. And my fretting hand smashes down on the frets you can hear my fretting through the amp. And over odd overtones. Over the last year and few months especially i have slowly honed my technique. I can control fretbuzz and clank. But my fretting hand (my left hand) is seriously lagging behind. So this is my attempt mainly for my fretting hand to soften its approach. As my action height has got lower and lower ive learnt that you still can pluck the strings with a fair amount of force but its in a more controlled manner. Its just a shame my left hand is still poor.

I can't play gentle with high action something just makes me want to play full on, also the higher the action the slower my fretting becomes.

But anyone wondering the bass setup is, height of string at 1st fret when depressed at 3rd 0.003 Neck relief measured at the 8th fret when first and last fret depressed .006". Height measured at 17th is 1.5mm for the E, 1mm G. Its sad i know this. Some people go lower don't know how they can play lower but they do.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1418727184' post='2632656']
....I can't play gentle with high action something just makes me want to play full on....
[/quote]

Controlling that has to come from you. You can play gently with a high action but you can't play hard with a low action, as you've found out.

IMO, you have to change your style first and the bass can follow.

If you really want the action low right now I'd suggest you just have to work through the "sounding bad" stage and it will come.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Lw.' timestamp='1418725750' post='2632635']
I must admit I find a couple of things odd with conversations like this; firstly I don't really understand the obsession with low action, but I guess that's just personal preference for feel & tone.

But really; how do people think lowering the action makes their technique better? In my mind if anything it'll make it worse as you're stroking the strings rather than plucking them & your fretting hand can be less accurate because there's less side movement before the string touches the board. Once a string has been fretted cleanly what difference does it make if you press a little harder (in my mind once it's fretted it's fretted)?

Not having a go, just curious as it seems like my understanding of how it works is different to others....
[/quote]

My left hand can play the notes and runs without any input from the right hand if need be. I can nick gtr techniques
and do left hand pull-offs and I can only do some of my things with a low action. I don't want to have to develop
my left hand to the point where it has to tense to play things...that will reduce the speed at which I can play.
I would say the high action/low action argument over tone is not a factor. I don't believe it really exists or you can't hear
it. If I sound off ... the first thing I look at is how well the actual string speaks..and after time the feel of the string will
be enough to change it. It is all about the response off the string sound-wise and feel-wise.
Low suits me............ and there are some basses I wont even pick up as I can't play them or be interested in trying to.
After a while you know what works for you..

Edited December 16, 2014 by JTUK

[tonyquipment]

I like it low and fast

Like guitar

If action high then I refuse to play it or rate it unplayable IMO

Low is good but it's subjective !!!!!

[Lifer]

I had the same thing as you, heard myself solo'd in studio and was appalled at how noisey it was, it was like I was hammering on every note with the left hand.

I found playing with the bass unplugged, not altering setup (which felt right - and still does) meant that I could hear what was actually going on, and has improved my left hand technique a lot.

[dave_bass5]

I normally have my E set to 2mm at the 12th fret. At the moment my current bass wont quite accommodate this but its still close.
I find i get a lot more fret buzz caused by heavy handed picking. Playing finger style seems to work much better for me. Unfortunately im not very good at it at gigs.

Ive never taken a measurement at the 17th fret, but i do tend to shim my necks so that the action above the 12 fret doesn't get any higher.

[cameltoe]

Bought a bass with a low action 5 years ago, and it was like putting on a pair of old slippers. Never looked back.

I need a low action now, and if the bass isn't capable of it, it gets moved on quickly. I've had fret work done over the years which have really helped enable the relief to be as minimal as possible.

Positives for me- much more fretting hand control. Ghosting, muting, note length control, all easier for me with a low action. My plucking hand does have to have controlled attack, but I can still dig in when needed.

Much less fretting noise, and a smoother sound overall for me, but still plenty of thump.

I acclimatised to playing this way and it felt natural from the start, from the first time I picked up that bass. It does require work for me, but not loads of concentration, just seems to be a good fit for my style I guess.

[mcnach]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1418737928' post='2632817']
Bought a bass with a low action 5 years ago, and it was like putting on a pair of old slippers.
[/quote]

what do you mean? smelly?

[Lozz196]

I used to think my action was quite high, being a fairly hard-hitter, until a good few people commented on how nice and low the action was both on basses that I`ve sold, and on my trusty 78 Precision. Have to admit digging in with a low action yields good clanky results, as being in a 3-piece band, that clank really helps on lead guitar solos to fill out the sound.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1418750990' post='2632964']


what do you mean? smelly?


[/quote]

Yes. It certainly smells now, if it didn't before anyway.