spacey Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Seeing some of what I could only describe as "ridicules" prices on mainly counterfeit or snide mock up Fender basses. Are people really prepared to pay nearly a thousand pounds for what is a counterfeit vintage period snide instrument . The value of a vintage instrument is in that it is not in production and thus rare. Counterfeits are produced daily and whilst fetching such ridicules prices I can see bodge up bass bandits are going to go all out in the counterfeit department, turning £150 bista basses in to logo rusty metal and sander attacked counterfeits, many of which look like Abu Hamza has played them on a 200 date world tour. What floats peoples boats, but a who pays a grand on a fake instrument ? Are people really that desperate to fool people on stage that you have a vintage bass that they will pay such money ? Baffled I am. Discussion ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiliwailer Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Though on the right bass it can look cool, I'm not a fan of relicing.... However, I do own a CS Closet Classic 1963 Jazz and a CS Relic 1955 P Bass! The Closet Classic has a good vibe, nitro lacquer cracks and all that. I wouldn't have chosen a Relic, but that P Bass is so damn good, and luckily only very lightly reliced, so I just have to keep it, it sounds and plays as though it was truly made for me. A refin wouldnt match the neck or hardware so why bother? I can only accept them as they are Fender's copies of their own old instruments. I don't expect others to buy into that philosophy. Over the years I have had a fair few pre CBS and mid 60's basses and have come to get used to the well used vibe and "who cares if I dink it now" thing. Though I do think good relicing looks very cool on the right bass, I'm not personally keen on Relics, particulary some of the lesser companies that I feel go way over the top. But I own 2. Bizarre. My next P bass will certainly not be a Relic, I hope. [b]EDIT:[/b] I should mention for discussion that my reason for not being into Relics is the same as when I owned real vintage basses - I wanted to be the one to do the damage and breaking in!!! Edited December 17, 2014 by Chiliwailer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradwell Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I'm not keen on relic basses either, most of the fun in a worn bass is the years of playing a great instrument that results in such a finish. I have a theory that relics were invented as a fashion statment that also had the bonus of shifting B-grade instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) The Limelight debate could run and run. By all accounts they play very well, and if people are happy with them at that price (and many bassists are), then I guess that's ok. I'm not sure the base instrument is a £150 dog though. The bigger issue / con - is the insane pricing of genuine vintage instruments. Just because it physically survived the last 40 years, doesn't mean it's worth £1,500. I'd wager the average Limelight bass is a better instrument than the majority of the £1-2k J's / P's being offered out there. Edited December 17, 2014 by Drax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetaFunk Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 It's fashion. Simple as that. Soon everyone will want nice shiny guitars and basses without a mark on them until that fad wears off and the fashion changes yet again. Stick around long enough and everything comes round again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Back in the day it was all about Pre-CBS Fenders, the general consensus was that CBS introduced considerable cost-saving measures and they got worse and worse until the early 80s where production was all but moved to Japan. There used to be some stock in the opinion that if an instrument has survived 40 years it's probably a good player, but these days it's all about the 70s Fenders (the Pre-CBS ones being completely out of most peoples budget). But these are the same ones with the CBS cost-saving measures, that 20 years ago "were not very good". So by the same logic, they must be pretty rare by now if only the good ones are left... But wait, there's tons and tons of 70s Fenders around all of a sudden, now that people want them. And it'll be the same for the "Golden Era mid 90s ones" soon too. People are wise to the fact that older instruments attract a higher price tag so they are keeping the sh*te ones, as well as making copies of them. I have a '74 Jazz bass, the neck is too chunky for me and the body weighs a ton or more. I got it years ago, before they were 'fashionable', for very little money - mainly because it has a baseball bat neck and weighs 13.5lb. The trouble is, it has not been played much (see above), so it's in nearly immaculate condition. If I attached it to a car towhook and went for a drive in the rain I could probably triple my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 The counterfeit ones getting sold will only increase the value of the genuine vintage ones, a real one, is a real one and as the prices of fakes escalates the genuine instruments will rise in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='Drax' timestamp='1418821538' post='2633652'] The Limelight debate could run and run. By all accounts they play very well, and if people are happy with them at that price (and many bassists are), then I guess that's ok. I'm not sure the base instrument is a £150 dog though. The bigger issue / con - is the insane pricing of genuine vintage instruments. Just because it physically survived the last 40 years, doesn't mean it's worth £1,500. I'd wager the average Limelight bass is a better instrument than the majority of the £1-2k J's / P's being offered out there. [/quote] Completely agree. Also, calling them 'fakes' is more of a con than the bass itself. Limelight basses are never described or presented as genuine vintage instruments. They are replicas that offer a vintage aesthetic, tone and great quality to players who don't want a Pre-CBS Fender to take gigging down the local WMC every weekend. I understand people don't like them and therefore won't buy them. Others will buy them. To go around calling them 'fakes' and a 'con' like the OP is unfair IMO. Nobody says that Fender's Road Worn basses are trying to con people with 'fake' instruments. They are a similar replica for a certain customer's taste and are never close enough in detail to be able to fool anyone into thinking they're an original vintage Fender. You would have to be incredibly naive to put £3000+ in to a vintage bass without checking pots, date stamps and other details that original vintage instruments have and the replicas do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) I'm not really into the whole relic thing, but it's just a cosmetic preference I'm not opposed to the idea or anything. What I do find a little odd is those who have bought a vintage instrument bemoaning the "fake" aspect of relics... A bass with someone elses "mojo" is arguably even more of a "fake". Edited December 17, 2014 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1418835369' post='2633898'] I'm not really into the whole relic thing, but it's just a cosmetic preference I'm not opposed to the idea or anything. What I do find a little odd is those who have bought a vintage instrument bemoaning the "fake" aspect of relics... A bass with someone elses "mojo" is arguably even more of a "fake". [/quote] It's definitely a philosophical outlook. I personally don't see the difference between someone slowly relicing a bass over 45 years through use and Mark compacting that same process of use into a shorter time period. I'm still buying a bass that someone else has reliced either way! It just happens that apparently, some people think that their opinion somehow allows them to tell us which kind of 'someone else's relicing' is the acceptable and which one isn't... Well it's my money and I'll do what I want with it :-) Edited December 17, 2014 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodiakblair Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Have I got this round the wrong way ? I thought vintage basses had to be mint to get top prices and re-issues had to be relic-ed to cost more. Still confused by the relic idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1418836568' post='2633922'] Have I got this round the wrong way ? I thought vintage basses had to be mint to get top prices and re-issues had to be relic-ed to cost more. Still confused by the relic idea. [/quote] There's something in that. Most 'reliced' basses look way more battered than a lot of actual vintage instruments, esp at the top end. Bottom line is, if you're happy with the bass, then its the right one for you. There's no 'wrong' choices if the player loves the instrument. Even BC Rich are still in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Here's the deal. I love the sound and feel of vintage fenders. I would love to own a pre-CBS precision. But I'm (relatively) broke, and was born a few decades too late. I don't want to "trick" or "fool" anyone, I just want a bass that sounds/looks, and more importantly feels the part. There's nothing in the world quite like a properly broken in neck. I don't care about authenticity or rareness or whether I've earned the wear on my bass as a badge of honour. Quality control on Fenders, especially vintage instruments, is patchy and here I am with the opportunity to have my own instrument specifically made with care by someone who really knows their stuff and who can ensure it's made with due care and attention. So for those reasons I ordered a Limelight precision. I'm not so hot on relic'd paint jobs or rusty hardware, so I've asked for minimal possible relicing and tarnished (not rusty) hardware. I've never been a fad follower and I wouldn't give the lint out of my belly button to be part of an "in" crowd - I just want a bass I can afford that makes me as happy as possible. I don't buy instruments to collect, I buy them to play. It's not a hobby, it's work for me and I buy instruments that allow me to provide a given sound. It doesn't hurt that it's fender shaped and looks older than it is - you wouldn't believe the number of people who listen with their eyes. You don't get my mindset, that's cool, but calling them counterfeit has some nasty connotations. I'm sorry if by doing what I'm doing I've bothered you in any way. Maybe you could elaborate what it is about my decision that upsets you? Edited December 17, 2014 by Hector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418811340' post='2633504'] Seeing some of what I could only describe as "ridicules" prices on mainly counterfeit or snide mock up Fender basses. Are people really prepared to pay nearly a thousand pounds for what is a counterfeit vintage period snide instrument . [/quote] yes from someone who has sworn about relic basses, why pay money etc etc For some 3 months now my limelight is choesen in preference to my nearly pristine usa lakland jo osbourne. It feels right, sounds great and you are not worried if theres an odd dent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 I would say the second the Fender logo is applied it steps from replica to counterfeit, I would think that is a good description of a counterfeit instrument. Unbranded, or even a makers name on the headstock leaves some credibility still in the instrument to me and as I say horses for courses, but to see badged fakes changing hands for £1000 does not upset me, it leaves me baffled who would stand on a stage with a grands worth of fake. What are they hoping ? other bass players are fooled you have a vintage instrument ? As to what upsets me, answer is nothing does, it baffles me why pay such money ? The relic attack by sander thing I find odd as well, its still a fake attacked with a sander to me, price tag or none. It might be a generation thing, with us older players preferring nice clean instruments as opposed to something that looks like Abu Hamza played it. interesting points been made as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Lovely sounding & playing basses, well worth the money, and they look beautiful... if you're into that kind of look. FWIW, I'd consider myself an older player. It's nowt to do with our ages, and all to do with people liking what they like. It's as simple as that, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418833643' post='2633866'] The counterfeit ones getting sold will only increase the value of the genuine vintage ones, a real one, is a real one and as the prices of fakes escalates the genuine instruments will rise in comparison. [/quote] Or the availability of good copies reduces the number of people looking to buy the real thing, and reduced demand = lower prices for the real thing. I know a few guys - some on here - who've sold their old '60s/70's instruments and are still getting the same feel/vibe/tone and admiring glances playing a faker/snide/relic/whatever which cost a whole lot less, is a whole lot more reliable, induces zero damage/theft anxiety at gigs, and is, despite what people may think, often equally easy to sell on as the real thing if you don't get on with it or need the cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1418841209' post='2633996'] Or the availability of good copies reduces the number of people looking to buy the real thing, and reduced demand = lower prices for the real thing. I know a few guys - some on here - who've sold their old '60s/70's instruments and are still getting the same feel/vibe/tone and admiring glances playing a faker/snide/relic/whatever which cost a whole lot less, is a whole lot more reliable, induces zero damage/theft anxiety at gigs, and is, despite what people may think, often equally easy to sell on as the real thing if you don't get on with it or need the cash. [/quote] There is that point as well I suppose, people that might have bought a new USA Top range Fender are now buying the counterfeit copies, but then again the mess Fender line up is in, making basses in China and the like they might have brought it on themselves as well. Not exactly ticking the boxes at the moment Fender are they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom1946 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Personally I can't regard any 'reliced' instrument as good unless it had been genuinely worn by me over a lot of years. I own a 12 string jumbo guitar that I bought new in 1983 and it's quite unscathed but the neck is worn to my hand and I've never found another quite like it. I don't like the idea of a dirty grungy bass, I do like well cared for stuff as my occaisional adverts will testify. Edited December 17, 2014 by tom1946 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberthot Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Anyone who knows me knows that I don't like anything that has marks, chips dings, dongs or dents but I accept that there are people who like that kind of look. I can understand what Spacey is getting at. It's one thing to be making a Fender copy, there are loads of manufacturers doing it from the cheapest far east stuff to Sadowsky but what makes these Limelight basses stand out is that they have Fender logos. This, to me, essentially makes them counterfeits or fakes. They're not being sold as Fenders but they still have the Fender logo on them and neck plates with serial numbers. They could've done something along the lines of the Fecker Pretender or Imprecision that guys on the forum have but they've gone for the proper Fender logo. Again, I'm not having a go at their quality or the relic look, just that they've not even tried to make them their own brand but have instead used the real thing. Me, I'd rather have a shiny new Warmoth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodiakblair Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Let me get this straight. These aren't put together from Fender parts but you can mix and match to suit your needs.Then they get aged and Fender logos and neck plates are fitted. You need to forgive my ignorance here on these basses,I thought it was some type of custom shop outwith Fender . I'm all for having the bass you want and I'm definitely no fan of Fender but if it's not a Fender it really shouldn't say it is. Fake logos don't sit well with me so I'll skip this discussion as I've nothing positive to add. Cheers Lads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 This is a tired argument about Fender logos on Limelights as all Limelight necks are Fender licensed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1418852861' post='2634176'] This is a tired argument about Fender logos on Limelights as all Limelight necks are Fender licensed. [/quote] The necks might be licensed blanks, but I doubt very much they let them use the trademark. The two things are worlds apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418811340' post='2633504'] The value of a vintage instrument is in that it is not in production and thus rare. [/quote] Nope. The value of a vintage instrument (the value of [i]any[/i] instrument) is how much someone is prepared to pay for it. A vintage instrument is no more worth a brand new one (and there is nothing to say it will actually be a better instrument), it is purely how much someone is prepared to pay. Something like a limelight, which I assume this is about appears (I don't have / haven't tried one) from all accounts to be a very well made instrument, and if someone is buying it knowing what it is, then it is definitely worth the money. The only problem with these things is when you get fakes on eBay where people think they are buying something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 [quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418854192' post='2634194'] The necks might be licensed blanks, but I doubt very much they let them use the trademark. The two things are worlds apart. [/quote] I don't know which part of an Allparts neck is a licensed 'blank', but you think what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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