Snide basses and ridicules prices ?

[JamesBass]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418811340' post='2633504']
Seeing some of what I could only describe as "ridicules" prices on mainly counterfeit or snide mock up Fender basses.
Are people really prepared to pay nearly a thousand pounds for what is a counterfeit vintage period snide instrument .

The value of a vintage instrument is in that it is not in production and thus rare.
Counterfeits are produced daily and whilst fetching such ridicules prices I can see bodge up bass bandits are going to go all out in the counterfeit department, turning £150 bista basses in to logo rusty metal and sander attacked counterfeits, many of which look like Abu Hamza has played them on a 200 date world tour.

What floats peoples boats, but a who pays a grand on a fake instrument ?
Are people really that desperate to fool people on stage that you have a vintage bass that they will pay such money ?

Baffled I am.
Discussion ?
[/quote]
So you've started a discussion about relic'd/copies/fakes/snide basses? But then your whole tone when discussing this has been extremely snide?

FWIW, everything we do is down to choice. Just because something is against a rule or is morally not right, doesn't mean you can stop people doing it. Mark at Limelight produces instruments that are head and shoulders above MANY of the upmarket basses I've played. Fender themselves and their customers has caused people like Mark to offer what they do, while it isn't right having a Fender Logo on one of Mark's basses, the logo's are in the public domain to purchase from shops so why can't Mark put a logo on one of his basses if a customer specs it? He also puts his logo and serial number on the rear of the headstock. The Neck plate issue is again a non-issue, he's not copied Fender numbers to my knowledge and nor is he likely to!

I appreciate that this style of bass may not be to your tastes. It is however, VERY popular, his basic price starts from £750, where as Fender's own Custom Shop seem to come in around £2K, it's also a LOT more impersonal, but if you want that personal touch from Fender then double that price! If you want a 60s or 70s bass then you need to budget a MINIMUM of £2.5K. Is it worth that? Who knows! I paid £1800 for my rickenbacker 4003 walnutburst, it's an incredible bass and sounds and feels amazing, however the following year I bought a second hand MIM P for £250. The P is actually my number 1 at the minute. To me its worth £1K easily, I could NEVER sell it for that as someone else wouldn't pay that! But in April of this year I played the ONLY bass that has ever screamed "I'm yours to me" I literally had nightmares about the price though. £6K for a 1966 Fender P!! Is it worth that?! No, not to me however within the month that P had sold, someone thought it was worth the £6K. This particular bass has been owned by some on here and is ABSOLUTELY flawless minus a few insignificant dings. My P has more dings than the 66. The difference is the 66's neck was utter perfection. It was comfortable and just homely to me! So imagine my delight when I'm told I can get the same feeling from a modern day replica for only £750. I don't care if it has the Fender logo or not. I just want a P bass that has my perfect neck without having to not eat for a few years. There's no harm in that surely?

Edited December 17, 2014 by JamesBass

[Beedster]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1418857505' post='2634252']
But in April of this year I played the ONLY bass that has ever screamed "I'm yours to me" I literally had nightmares about the price though. £6K for a 1966 Fender P!! Is it worth that?! No, not to me however within the month that P had sold, someone thought it was worth the £6K. This particular bass has been owned by some on here and is ABSOLUTELY flawless minus a few insignificant dings. My P has more dings than the 66. The difference is the 66's neck was utter perfection. It was comfortable and just homely to me! So imagine my delight when I'm told I can get the same feeling from a modern day replica for only £750. I don't care if it has the Fender logo or not. I just want a P bass that has my perfect neck without having to not eat for a few years. There's no harm in that surely?
[/quote]

That's what I hear from a lot of musicians, and not just bass players. Relicing/ageing/distressing is about feel and function as much as about looks. Fender wouldn't do it if there wasn't a massive market for it, and that massive market includes some pretty serious musicians (for example I know a couple of 'pros who play FCS Pino's because it's to all intents a vintage instrument in feel and tone but without the price point and without the risk). Sure, there's an aesthetic/visual thing going on in some cases, but play a light relic and it feels wonderfully old and played in to the musician but looks pretty much new to the casual observer.

Fender logos on the headstocks of non-Fender basses? The only people who should be worried about that are Fender.

[Geek99]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1418836345' post='2633913']
It's definitely a philosophical outlook. I personally don't see the difference between someone slowly relicing a bass over 45 years through use and Mark compacting that same process of use into a shorter time period.

I'm still buying a bass that someone else has reliced either way! It just happens that apparently, some people think that their opinion somehow allows them to tell us which kind of 'someone else's relicing' is the acceptable and which one isn't... Well it's my money and I'll do what I want with it :-)
[/quote]
yes, [i]exactly [/i]what I think.

[pete.young]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418854192' post='2634194']
The necks might be licensed blanks, but I doubt very much they let them use the trademark.
The two things are worlds apart.
[/quote]
Spacey is correct, at least as far as Warmoth is concerned.

Warmoth publish their licence here. http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/fender_lic.pdf

It states in clause 6 " ... nor shall it (WARMOTH) place on any Replacement Neck any name logo or mark owned by FMIC .

I don't know whose necks Limelight uses, but I'd be surprised if other licenses said anything different. I can see why Limelight no longer puts the Fender logos on.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1418891983' post='2634408']Relicing/ageing/distressing is about feel and function as much as about looks.[/quote]

Yup.

The point of reference for me is my '71 Precision. I've played any number of basses, and liked them, but as soon as I picked up the Limelight it [i]felt[/i] like my '71. In a sense, whether it fools anyone else or not, it fools [i]me[/i].

As for the whole Fender logo thing, AFAIK no puppies or kittens have drowned as a result of it. People who get their knickers in a twist about it should maybe divert their energies elsewhere. World peace, or something.

[Delberthot]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1418897071' post='2634511']
As for the whole Fender logo thing, AFAIK no puppies or kittens have drowned as a result of it. People who get their knickers in a twist about it should maybe divert their energies elsewhere. World peace, or something.
[/quote]

Seriously?

Would've expected better from a moderator


All it takes is for one person to pass one off as the real thing and Fender will come down on Limelight like a f***ing anvil.

If I was offering what Limelight are I would want people to know what it was, not just handwritten marker on the back of the headstock but on the front as well so everyone could see who's handywork it was. They appear to be really good basses, well made and pretty authentic or they may just be the latest fad/emperors new clothes or whatever. Whatever they are, if they're doing the job you want them to do and look the part then who cares.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Delberthot' timestamp='1418898618' post='2634537']
Whatever they are, if they're doing the job you want them to do and look the part then who cares.
[/quote]

Yup.

[thebassist]

[size=3] [/size]
[size=3]I recently played a couple of Limelights and have owned a number of pretty nice Bravewoods in the past and, personally speaking, none of them have gotten near to the look or feel of my '64 Fender Jazz Bass. I don’t think it’s something that can actually be picked up in photographs either. I can’t really put my finger on what it is but when I see a Limelight/Bravewood in a photo, I think that they look pretty great, but when I’ve actually got one in my hand and look at my genuine ’64 Jazz sat next to it, the Limelight/Bravewood looks and feels reliced in my opinion... [/size]
[size=3] [/size]
[size=3]Having said all this, if they float your boat, go for it![/size]
[size=3] [/size]
[size=3]I was actually thinking of asking Mark at Limelight to build me an Olympic white/matching headstock '64 Jazz with zero relicing. As close to what a real Jazz would have been delivered to someone brand new from the factory back in '64 but then I decided to buy a 6-string instead [/size]

[karlfer]

Could I afford a 1963 Fender jazz, Sea foam Green with matching headstock? No (could I ever find one?).
Could I afford a tribute bass by Mark to the above spec. Yes.
Did I put a Fender decal on the front? Yes.
Why? Cos I wanted to and where I gig a lot less than one in 100 make comments about anything bass related.
Do I feel guilty about it? Not on your nelly.

It's feel, sound, looks and desire by me, for what I want to gig with. And I gotta tell ya, I got lucky with the tribute bass Mark made for me.

Edited December 18, 2014 by karlfer

[neepheid]

Let's say you could exactly copy the Heinz beans recipe, cook it yourself and can it - would it be right to put the Heinz beans label on the can? I can only speak for myself but I'd be so damn proud of myself that it'd be labelled as neepheid's super awesome mega baked beans, you can bet on that

If you're comfortable with passing off a replica/tribute (however accurate and well made) as the genuine article, that's your call. I'm not, so I don't and I won't.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='thebassist' timestamp='1418900056' post='2634565']
[size=3]I was actually thinking of asking Mark at Limelight to build me an Olympic white/matching headstock '64 Jazz with zero relicing. As close to what a real Jazz would have been delivered to someone brand new from the factory back in '64 but then I decided to buy a 6-string instead [/size]
[/quote]

I made an enquiry with Mark a little while back about making a bass with no relicing but he said that it would require a higher standard of finishing that they couldn't achieve... hence only offering reliced basses.

I ordered from Peterbuilt in the end.

[karlfer]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1418902622' post='2634605']
Let's say you could exactly copy the Heinz beans recipe, cook it yourself and can it - would it be right to put the Heinz beans label on the can? I can only speak for myself but I'd be so damn proud of myself that it'd be labelled as neepheid's super awesome mega baked beans, you can bet on that

If you're comfortable with passing off a replica/tribute (however accurate and well made) as the genuine article, that's your call. I'm not, so I don't and I won't.
[/quote]

I am and I will.
That's the thing with these conversations though isn't it, yay and nay sayers and frankly unlikely much more than a few will change their mind

[neepheid]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1418903408' post='2634619']
I am and I will.
That's the thing with these conversations though isn't it, yay and nay sayers and frankly unlikely much more than a few will change their mind
[/quote]

BC would be pretty content free if that weren't the case. I'm off to stare up the nose of someone who's looking down it at me for not taking a second bass to my gigs...

[karlfer]

My nose is big but even mine won't reach Aberdeen.
Now, if you could pop down to Stonehaven I'm in with a chance

[Marc S]

The debate about whether a Limelight should sport a Fender logo is nonsense!

If you restore an old MG sports car, with 3rd party body parts (to replace the rusty MG ones)
.... does this mean your car shouldn't be wearing an MG badge anymore???

The logo is just part of the overall look of the instrument,
and if that's what the owner wants - fine!
The words "fake" and "counterfeit" are suggestive that someone is trying to pass these basses off as a genuine
old Fender, and it's pretty obvious that no-one is trying to do that

If they tried to sell it as a genuine Fender, then they are committing an offence

Take it from me, I've owned 2 old Pre-CBS Fender basses, and I've tried 2 Limelights
The Limelights absolutely win, hands down, on playability, sound, feel etc etc
Mark is using top quality components, and creating top quality, bespoke instruments
and furthermore, he's helping someone get the instrument of their dreams - which otherwise, they'd never be able to afford

If you don't like relics - fair enough - it's all down to taste, and it's your choice
No-one is forcing you to play one or buy one

I wasn't particularly a fan of reliced basses, until I got my Roadworn Fender Jazz
It's the best, most comfortable, great sounding, versatile bass I've ever played or owned
no contest - and I've owned early Fenders, Rickenbackers, a Musicman and several others over the years

What is really satisfying though, is that I don't have forty fits every time I gig my roadworn Jazz
I've owned new / mint basses before, and found that I was paranoid about getting them scratched
or some other muso knocking a cymbal stand onto them.....
Gigging with a pre-reliced bass is such a liberating feeling, honestly!

There are other builders of reliced basses out there, and I've seen some real OTT stuff, and some tat
But if you haven't tried a Liumelight bass yet - you have no place criticising them until you have!
They are superbly crafted instruments, they feel great, comfortable, and worn-in (not worn out!) and sound amazing

To those who insist on mint, un-touched basses
That's fine, it's your choice - but they are supposed to be for playing,
They are working instruments, and will get knocked and bumped over the years
If you want to keep them absolutely mint, I don't know how you can, without putting them in a glass case,
..... and never using them...
and what do you do if it gets a knock or scratch?

EDIT: I believe that Mark now doesn't normally fit the Fender logo on his custom basses BTW

Edited December 18, 2014 by Marc S

[spacey]

How is it nonsense, if it has a logo, it is a trademark counterfeit, thats the law of the land unfortunately.
It was not made by Fender, it did not leave the factory as a Fender, its a counterfeit, end of argument on that one.
However I do not doubt they play well, All parts bodies and necks are made almost exact to specification plan for year and are good quality components.
Quick fret level and set up and it will feel played in.
The thread was not particularly about Limelight, but as its going that way, the counterfeit issue, is one of legality not opinion.
If they leave unbranded as bista part death by sander basses then they are not counterfeits, once the trade mark brandings are placed upon it, then it becomes a counterfeit.
I dont think Fender give two monkeys about the brand or trademark themselves however, hence why they are on the verge of total bankruptcy, I also feel they have contributed and fed the clone market by making crap quality basses and making Fenders in China put the knife in the brand to me, probably enough to make me buy a copycat bass if I was in the market myself.

I took in one of those Fender Highway basses in a trade, you could keep pics in the neck pocket, you can not blame anyone for buying something else with quality control like that.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418914786' post='2634793']
The thread was not particularly about Limelight,
[/quote]

Oh - which [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]mainly counterfeit or snide mock up Fender basses that [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]people are prepared to pay nearly a thousand pounds for were you referring to in the OP?[/font][/color]

[spacey]

The one I initially saw was unbranded, I was not stating that Limelight are the ones responsible for the counterfeiting ? I was of the impression that they were bista basses and people were applying their own logos ?
Surely they are not leaving the workshop branded ?
Some suggest they are ?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418915813' post='2634810']
Some suggest they are ?
[/quote]

They used to, but I think Mark very has sensibly decided to leave it up to the buyer.

[Conan]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1418903408' post='2634619']
That's the thing with these conversations though isn't it, yay and nay sayers and frankly unlikely much more than a few will change their mind
[/quote]

I'm one of the few that has changed my mind.

When the Limelight basses first came to my attention I viewed them in much the same way as the OP, and couldn't get past the idea of them being snidey counterfeits.

Then I did a lot more reading and looking. I'll admit that I haven't actually played a Limelight bass yet, but I now buy into their ethos. I think it is the overall quality that has swayed me, as well as the fact that they offer so many user-choice options that Fender do not.

Many BC members (whose opinions I trust) state that their Limelight bass is the best or one of the best basses they have played - and that really means something (unless they are all being paid to say so of course! ).

Currently I have four jazz basses and no real [b][i]need[/i][/b] for any more... But I could maybe do with a P bass... Would I consider a Limelight? Absofeckinlutely!

[Marc S]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418914786' post='2634793']
How is it nonsense, if it has a logo, it is a trademark counterfeit, thats the law of the land unfortunately.....

[/quote]

It is nonsense, because Your point was about counterfeiting and fakes!
No one is trying to pass Limelights off as the "real thing" - yet in earlier posts you seem to suggest that

I'm sure there are people trying to pass off some guitars as fake - but certainly not Mark
There's a difference between "counterfeit" and "reliced"
and you are lumping one in with the other
Yes, it has a badge on, but no one is trying to sell it as anything but a replica, or tribute to....

Your thread title "Snide basses and ridicules prices" makes no sense at all
What exactly is "snide" or who is being "snide"?

Some well made custom relics are in fact, tributes to great guitars
and, I'm sure you meant "ridiculous" rather than "ridicules" - but for a custom built bass,
to an exact specification, the ones I have tried have been rather low priced,
considering their quality....

Further to your comment re the logo
If Fender want to get upset about this, that's their place (and it's the law of a different land - the USA
because not all "lands" have exactly the same law)
but I would say that they don't want to run the risk of looking as OTT as Rickenbacker have been seen to be,
regarding their complete over reaction to Rick copies.....

[Drax]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1418917965' post='2634845']


I'm one of the few that has changed my mind.

When the Limelight basses first came to my attention I viewed them in much the same way as the OP, and couldn't get past the idea of them being snidey counterfeits.

Then I did a lot more reading and looking. I'll admit that I haven't actually played a Limelight bass yet, but I now buy into their ethos. I think it is the overall quality that has swayed me, as well as the fact that they offer so many user-choice options that Fender do not.

Many BC members (whose opinions I trust) state that their Limelight bass is the best or one of the best basses they have played - and that really means something (unless they are all being paid to say so of course! ).

Currently I have four jazz basses and no real [b][i]need[/i][/b] for any more... But I could maybe do with a P bass... Would I consider a Limelight? Absofeckinlutely!
[/quote]

+1

[wateroftyne]

Really, we should be grateful stuff like this is out there. It should encourage Fender to raise their game.

You'd think.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1418917965' post='2634845']
I'll admit that I haven't actually played a Limelight bass yet...
[/quote]

You're welcome to give mine a run out if you like, just to get another opinion on it...

[Conan]

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1418918182' post='2634849']
If Fender want to get upset about this, that's their place but I would say that they don't want to run the risk of looking as OTT as Rickenbacker have been seen to be, regarding their complete over reaction to Rick copies.....
[/quote]

I find it hard to believe that Fender are still unaware of the Limelight basses. The fact that they seem to have done nothing about it would seem to indicate that they can live with this (very minor) level of threat to their brand.

Imitation is, after all, the most sincere form of flattery.