Snide basses and ridicules prices ?

[Marc S]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1418918448' post='2634856']
I find it hard to believe that Fender are still unaware of the Limelight basses. The fact that they seem to have done nothing about it would seem to indicate that they can live with this (very minor) level of threat to their brand.

Imitation is, after all, the most sincere form of flattery.
[/quote]

One of the points a failed to make, and well put Conan

[Conan]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1418902678' post='2634606']
I made an enquiry with Mark a little while back about making a bass with no relicing but he said that it would require a higher standard of finishing that they couldn't achieve... hence only offering reliced basses.
[/quote]

That's interesting... still, I can put up with a bit of relicking on the bass body, but I hate (with a passion) the horrible rusty (and even tarnished) hardware!!

I wonder if he would put a new bridge, tuners, pickups, etc onto one of his lightest relicked bodies. That would work for me big time! After all, lots of people buy older basses and replace parts with new ones...

Hmmmm.... I've got myself thinking now!

Edited December 18, 2014 by Conan

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1418918422' post='2634854']
You're welcome to give mine a run out if you like, just to get another opinion on it...
[/quote]

I've seen the state of that bass mate - I'd probably catch something from it!

[spacey]

The problem with accelerated corrosion is it will keep corroding at that rate and soon you wont be able to adjust the tail pieces or other iron bits as they will rust together.
Will only be an issue with iron bits, screws pole pieces, the chrome bits are usually just dulled up. .

[Beedster]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1418918448' post='2634856']


I find it hard to believe that Fender are still unaware of the Limelight basses. The fact that they seem to have done nothing about it would seem to indicate that they can live with this (very minor) level of threat to their brand.

Imitation is, after all, the most sincere form of flattery.
[/quote]

Fender appear generally happy with these things unless you try to sell the instruments direct to or in the USA, in which case their lawyers will write to you

[SubsonicSimpleton]

There is quite a big difference IMHO between replicas which have the Fender decal on the headstock and the basses and guitars which crop up on ebay on a fairly regular basis where the seller has applied not just a Fender decal, but also custom shop decals and a fake serial number decal and then tries to pass off the instrument as being from the fender custom shop, when it is fairly obvious to anyone with a good eye for detail that the instrument is actually a cheap Squier.

In the case of the replica, there is no claim that the instrument is a Fender, the decal is used to complete the look, not in an attempt to defraud potential buyers.

There is a London based luthier (can't recall his name of the top of my head) who specialises in pre CBS replicas, who uses hide glue exclusively and vintage trussrods etc (made a replica tele for Wilko Johnson IIRC) who also sticks Fender logos on, as players get him to make high quality replicas so they can retire their genuine vintage instruments from use on the road (for whatever reasons) - is this morally wrong, or just pragmatic and sensible?

Personally with regard to vintage instruments I would rather own a good fake than the real deal, as if the need arose to perform maintenance such as replacing pots, refretting etc the real thing can lose a huge amount of it's value the minute it ceases to be original, and with a good replica, you should be getting an instrument that has had much more attention paid to it's assembly than a production line Fender ever would have. Also I don't have much faith in the vintage market, especially in the wake of the Music Ground trial, where it came to light that a "respectable" and long established business had been not only caught re-assembling stolen instruments to hide their identities, but also had been defrauding customers for years with faked amps and instruments (of which I had heard rumours as far back as the early 90s). If I buy something like a limelight I can actually be certain about what I'm getting.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418915813' post='2634810']
The one I initially saw was unbranded, I was not stating that Limelight are the ones responsible for the counterfeiting ? I was of the impression that they were bista basses and people were applying their own logos ?
Surely they are not leaving the workshop branded ?
Some suggest they are ?
[/quote]
Why does it matter then if people apply their own decals? What's the issue? If someone pays £1000 of there own money for something they value at £1000 then that's their choice?

You keep using the word counterfeit, but none of these basses are actual counterfeit? 99% of the time people who sell the basses on are very true and state it's a parts build or a "bitsa" you get the few who don't own up to things, but very few do that and they're usually weeded out.

Mark did once build the basses with the Fender logo's but in the summer he ended logo-ed production and left it up to whomever buys his basses. When I finally buy mine I'll be getting mine without the logo. I can then add one if and when I'm ready. Sue me for that choice.

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418915813' post='2634810']
I was of the impression that they were bista basses and people were applying their own logos ?

[/quote]

Ahh, Bista...

[tauzero]

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1418912113' post='2634753']
The debate about whether a Limelight should sport a Fender logo is nonsense!

If you restore an old MG sports car, with 3rd party body parts (to replace the rusty MG ones)
.... does this mean your car shouldn't be wearing an MG badge anymore???
[/quote]

Very poor analogy. That's the equivalent of starting with a Fender and then replacing (say) the BBOT and pickguard, in which case no-pne would argue it shouldn't still have a Fender badge. A better analogy would be building a Caterham or Westfield kit car and sticking a Lotus badge on it.

[Wilco]

Ah, relicing - always a subject that causes a healthy debate!

I thought it was just me, but I agree with thebassist's comment above in reference to a reliced bass not comparing favourably (aesthetically) to a much older instrument. For example I look at Andy Baxters website often (will never have enough funds to buy, but the basses are interesting) & when I look at reliced instruments all I 'see' is an (overly) battered new bass!!

There's another comment on this thread about having a bass with your own mojo on it. I agree with that too. I'm really careful with my basses, but they will still get the odd knock & ding. But that's my history with the bass, my story with it. Far more interesting than an instrument that has just had some tools taken to it to knock it about a bit....

Relicing seems inherently linked to Fender instruments (btw - I'm hugely impressed with my three) . It seems you could buy a used US/Jap P or J on here for very reasonable money & cheaper than a relicced version. Why not buy one, keep it for a while & it will naturally relic over time in a more realistic way?

You've probably guessed I'm not an artificial relicing fan - in fact I find the whole thing a bit bizarre & a complete nonsense.

However that is just my opinion & if other people like the concept, then that's fine too. Life would be dull if we all thought the same way...

Edited December 19, 2014 by Wilco

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1418922727' post='2634940']
Why does it matter then if people apply their own decals? What's the issue? If someone pays £1000 of there own money for something they value at £1000 then that's their choice?

You keep using the word counterfeit, but none of these basses are actual counterfeit? 99% of the time people who sell the basses on are very true and state it's a parts build or a "bitsa" you get the few who don't own up to things, but very few do that and they're usually weeded out.
[/quote]

If you put build a "bitsa" bass and put a Fender logo on it then the problem is that its technically illegal. You're breaking the law if you try to sell it, regardless of whether or not you're open about what it is. The guy selling it now might be honest about what it is, but the next guy might not be, which is why disclosure doesn't affect the legality.

I've C&P'd this from elsewhere, but Trading Standards are quite clear about this:

1. Using a logo/trademark that doesn't belong to you is illegal unless you have permission or a license to use it
2. Using a disclaimer ("this is not a real Fender") is not a legal defence in Trade Mark / Copyright law
3. Counterfeit goods (like Bitsa basses with Fender logos) cannot be legitimately sold, even with a disclaimer.

Now, personally I don't really care if someone wants to build themselves a bitsa, thats fine by me. But the law is what it is.

Again, more C&P:

Fender sell replacement necks with logos to be fitted [b]only[/b] to Fender guitars.

Warmoth (and others) sell licensed (non-logo) Fender style necks which can be put on anything you want.

It is the addition of the Fender logo on a guitar that was not made by Fender that puts you on shaky legal ground. Adding a Fender logo to your homebrew bitsa is probably fine for your own personal use, but selling it becomes dodgy.

Edited December 19, 2014 by uncle psychosis

[Marc S]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1418947523' post='2635222']
Very poor analogy. That's the equivalent of starting with a Fender and then replacing (say) the BBOT and pickguard, in which case no-pne would argue it shouldn't still have a Fender badge. A better analogy would be building a Caterham or Westfield kit car and sticking a Lotus badge on it.
[/quote]

No it isn't - Limelight use Fender built / licensed parts
Whereas Kit Car companies like westfield, Dutton etc do not supply their kits with parts made by Lotus.....

[Marc S]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1418979200' post='2635343']
If you put build a "bitsa" bass and put a Fender logo on it then the problem is that its technically illegal. You're breaking the law if you try to sell it, regardless of whether or not you're open about what it is.....
[/quote]

Indeed - but if I had built my own bass, or commissioned someone else to,
and applied a Fender logo to it - that's my look out
Technically, it may be illegal, but as others have said
Fender don't seem to be too bothered about it, as long as I'm not selling it as a Fender,
or attempting to pass it off as such

Builders of custom made replicas don't seem to be trying to pass their instruments off as "genuine"
and fender don't seem to be overtly bothered by this practice
Again, I make the point that perhaps this may be partly down to them not wanting to be seen to go down
the same route as Rickenbacker, and being completely OTT about it

If I were CEO at Fender, I think I'd be more worried about the people
who are applying logos to Squiers, and trying to pass them off as genuine USA Fenders.....

Yes, relicing guitars & basses seems to divide people
but as someone who has moved from the no camp, to the yes camp (as long as it's done well)
I will again iterate the point - no-one is forcing you to buy or play a reliced bass or guitar
I don't dictate to others about their choice of wallpaper, clothes, music etc etc [i]ad infinitum...... [/i]

[uncle psychosis]

Personally I don't really understand why quite so many people are so desperate to put the Fender logo on instruments that, well, aren't. Even one of those "fender-alike" logos that use the same font but say whatever you want them to say makes more sense to me.

[Sammers]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1418920909' post='2634901']
There is a London based luthier (can't recall his name of the top of my head) who specialises in pre CBS replicas, who uses hide glue exclusively and vintage trussrods etc (made a replica tele for Wilko Johnson IIRC) who also sticks Fender logos on, as players get him to make high quality replicas so they can retire their genuine vintage instruments from use on the road (for whatever reasons) - is this morally wrong, or just pragmatic and sensible?
[/quote]

Is that Joseph Kaye Guitars? He's definitely built Norman Watt-Roy a bass so possibly the same guy!

The thing I like about the relic arguement is that (generally) those opposed to the idea seem to completely undermine the work that goes into producing an old looking instrument... I very much doubt that any builder doing relics professionally simply takes a belt sander to it and it's done in 5 minutes.
No doubt it takes a bit of skill to do it nicely and get the feel/sound of an older instrument.

The whole argument is nonsense when it boils down to it.. people like different a type of bass to you... big whoop!

[spacey]

Where nobody has disagreed with me is that Fender have brought this on themselves, they are losing customer loyalty and making the wrong products at the wrong prices.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418984234' post='2635417']
Where nobody has disagreed with me is that Fender have brought this on themselves, they are losing customer loyalty and making the wrong products at the wrong prices.
[/quote]
I'll agree with you on that. I tried to get my head round the basses that Fender do and it's just too damn confusing! There are so many lines and models and all fairly similar pricing!

I'd love to have a look over their sales figures with them in hand it can't be hard to sort out their mess! Though on your point about how well they control their IP and the such, I don't want them to become Rickenbacker esque and try to sue everyone who even mentions bitsa basses.

[brensabre79]

Does anyone want to buy a Rolex btw?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1418984004' post='2635411']
Personally I don't really understand why quite so many people are so desperate to put the Fender logo on instruments that, well, aren't. Even one of those "fender-alike" logos that use the same font but say whatever you want them to say makes more sense to me.
[/quote]

FWIW, I would be 100% happy with a Limelight logo that compliments the look of the bass.

But it would have to compliment the look of the bass. Some are great (Lakland, G&L). Some of them are horrible.

[Marc S]

Also re copyright issues,
What has not been mentioned here,
is that Fender themselves "stole" / "borrowed" their headstock design from Bigsby,
Who had themselves stolen / borrowed the general headstock design from very early Spanish acoustic guitars

Here's a link to the BIgsby site
I'm searching for a pic of that very early Spanish guitar - but I have seen a pic
and a museum article on it.... if anyone else remembers where this is, please feel free to post
I think the instrument was dated around circa 1880, if my memory serves me.....

[url="http://bigsbyfiles.blogspot.co.uk/"]http://bigsbyfiles.blogspot.co.uk/

E[/url]DIT: I say this, fully realising that copying a logo and copying an overall design may be regarded as two different things
but copy the basic design of the headstock is what Fender did....

Edited December 19, 2014 by Marc S

[SubsonicSimpleton]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1418979200' post='2635343']
If you put build a "bitsa" bass and put a Fender logo on it then the problem is that its technically illegal. You're breaking the law if you try to sell it, regardless of whether or not you're open about what it is. The guy selling it now might be honest about what it is, but the next guy might not be, which is why disclosure doesn't affect the legality.

I've C&P'd this from elsewhere, but Trading Standards are quite clear about this:

1. Using a logo/trademark that doesn't belong to you is illegal unless you have permission or a license to use it
2. Using a disclaimer ("this is not a real Fender") is not a legal defence in Trade Mark / Copyright law
3. Counterfeit goods (like Bitsa basses with Fender logos) cannot be legitimately sold, even with a disclaimer.

Now, personally I don't really care if someone wants to build themselves a bitsa, thats fine by me. But the law is what it is.

Again, more C&P:

Fender sell replacement necks with logos to be fitted [b]only[/b] to Fender guitars.

Warmoth (and others) sell licensed (non-logo) Fender style necks which can be put on anything you want.

It is the addition of the Fender logo on a guitar that was not made by Fender that puts you on shaky legal ground. Adding a Fender logo to your homebrew bitsa is probably fine for your own personal use, but selling it becomes dodgy.
[/quote]
So what happens if you make a bitsa using a genuine fender neck sourced from a genuine fender instrument, but fitted to a body of unknown origin with aftermarket hardware, are you then obliged to scrape off the fender decal and remove the production date stamps etc?

[Conan]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418984234' post='2635417']
Where nobody has disagreed with me is that Fender have brought this on themselves, they are losing customer loyalty and making the wrong products at the wrong prices.
[/quote]

Broadly, yes. But they also still do some good instruments at very competitive prices. The problem is being able to find them amid a vast and confusing range...

[lurksalot]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1418915813' post='2634810']
The one I initially saw was unbranded, I was not stating that Limelight are the ones responsible for the counterfeiting ? I was of the impression that they were bista basses and people were applying their own logos ?
Surely they are not leaving the workshop branded ?
Some suggest they are ?
[/quote]
[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1418916001' post='2634814']
They used to, but I think Mark very has sensibly decided to leave it up to the buyer.
[/quote]

This would suggest that Mark either felt it wrong to put the logo on or he was told not to put the logo on , so whether snide, fake or not , it would appear putting a fender logo on a non Fender guitar isn't quite right .
[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1418947523' post='2635222']
Very poor analogy. That's the equivalent of starting with a Fender and then replacing (say) the BBOT and pickguard, in which case no-pne would argue it shouldn't still have a Fender badge. A better analogy would be building a Caterham or Westfield kit car and sticking a Lotus badge on it.
[/quote]

, the caterham badge is quite a good rip-off of the lotus 7 badge style though

[Conan]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1418987331' post='2635466']
This would suggest that Mark either felt it wrong to put the logo on or he was told not to put the logo on , so whether snide, fake or not , it would appear putting a fender logo on a non Fender guitar isn't quite right .
[/quote]

Not necessarily. He still offers basses with Fender logos as an option, I believe.

[lurksalot]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1418987832' post='2635471']
Not necessarily. He still offers basses with Fender logos as an option, I believe.
[/quote]

would that be officially