Paypal Gift Payments

[sirmuppet]

Another thing to note is taking a payment via paypal for an item being collected. If the seller can't prove delivery on an item paid for (even if it is being collected!) then they will refund the buyer. So they could pay you, collect it then claim it was never delivered. Be wary that notes in the invoice and payment mean sweat FA as they will disregard it.

Like karlfer said, paying by credit card is a good idea. I had Ebay/paypal refuse to give me my money back. The item was collection only, I messaged the seller the see if he would post, he said he would. Guitar arrived not as described. Seller refused to give me my money back. Paypal/Ebay said since it was listed as collection only their terms didn't cover me even though they saw in the messages he agreed to post. I went to my credit card company who agreed I was in the right, asked for some info and returned the money to my card. Well worth paying with a credit card even if you have the dough for the added security.

karlfer I do hope everything works out for you. If you need any help then let me know. I have a 2000+ Ebay account for both buying and selling and been on both sides of the argument.

[Dazed]

I haven't used it but a seller once suggested he always used a Cash On Delivery service by one of the major couriers, UPS or such. It wasn't outrageously expensive and it seemed straightforward. Courier collects from seller ( he hasn't been paid) delivery to destination and courier collects payment from you.
The downside appeared to be that once you sign and pay then if you inspect the item and find its damaged you have to go through the normal claims process. Which I guess is the case when receiving parcels from any courier.


So this paypal issue isn't a paypal issue, it's a dishonest seller problem?

[icastle]

[quote name='Dazed' timestamp='1419703212' post='2642068']
So this paypal issue isn't a paypal issue, it's a dishonest seller problem?
[/quote]

Absolutely.

The Gift option was never designed for transactions, hence no buyer protection.

[CamdenRob]

The problem seems to be that adequate protection is available but everyone is to tight to pay for it... I always just send a normal paypal and pay the fees. Yes they are expensive but I'm paying for the protection paypal offers. As a seller I accept paypal gift for low value items or ask for the extra to cover any fees, if it was a large transaction I'd just cover the fees myself.

I have in the past sent bank transfers, but only to people with extensive feedback threads and a history of selling similar value items.

Unfortunately there is always going to be risk... The only way around it would be some kind of third party system as someone mentioned above, where the item and money are collected by a third party before sending out. However this would cost money and no-one seems keen on paying for anything,,, Also I'm guessing there would be potential insurance issues if the bass arrived damaged the seller could claim that it was fine when they sent it out.

alot of dishonest bastards out there... What happened to karlfer above is infruiating, I would not be able to let that lie.. I'd be giving up work and hunting them down!

[karlfer]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1419765106' post='2642470']
The problem seems to be that adequate protection is available but everyone is to tight to pay for it... I always just send a normal paypal and pay the fees. Yes they are expensive but I'm paying for the protection paypal offers. As a seller I accept paypal gift for low value items or ask for the extra to cover any fees, if it was a large transaction I'd just cover the fees myself.

I have in the past sent bank transfers, but only to people with extensive feedback threads and a history of selling similar value items.

Unfortunately there is always going to be risk... The only way around it would be some kind of third party system as someone mentioned above, where the item and money are collected by a third party before sending out. However this would cost money and no-one seems keen on paying for anything,,, Also I'm guessing there would be potential insurance issues if the bass arrived damaged the seller could claim that it was fine when they sent it out.

alot of dishonest bastards out there... What happened to karlfer above is infruiating, I would not be able to let that lie.. I'd be giving up work and hunting them down!
[/quote]

Try hunting them down when the address turns out to be non-existent and the phone number is for a Sunday football league.
Well and truly kippered was I.

And I used normal PAINPal, not PAINPal gift

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1419765429' post='2642477']
Try hunting them down when the address turns out to be non-existent and the phone number is for a Sunday football league.
Well and truly kippered was I.

And I used normal PAINPal, not PAINPal gift
[/quote]

You must have been fuming... I would have been too... bastards...

[karlfer]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1419765500' post='2642478']
You must have been fuming... I would have been too... bastards...
[/quote]

Just a bit, oh yes, just a bit.

[BASIC5]

Been there... it happens when you don't expect it...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/151930-no-happy-feedback-for-markns4/page__p__1576570__hl__markns4__fromsearch__1#entry1576570"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/151930-no-happy-feedback-for-markns4/page__p__1576570__hl__markns4__fromsearch__1#entry1576570[/url]

It is also my experience that Paypal doesn't help you when you wire the money. My luck was that this was only for some pick-ups, the loss of Karlfer hurts really bad.

no good wishes for the new year to these guys....

[itsmedunc]

Unfortunately, if a buyer doesn't pay the fees, this can lead to the seller not sending the item and ripping off the buyer. If a buyer does pay the fees, then the buyer can say that they haven't received the item, they will then get the item and their money back. Thus ripping off the seller. Which method of paypal would you use being an honest seller?

There's another problem for the seller too. I don't know of any courier that will insure musical instruments that are not in hard cases (let me know if anyone does). For instance, sending a guitar can become a big problem for a seller. A hard case is needed, an extra insurance premium has to be be paid and perhaps paypal fees. This will put prices up substantially. In my experience, many buyers are not willing to pay the extra for a good service and want items sent the cheapest way often using idiots like Myhermes. I've seen buyers on BC complaining that delivery fees were too high and basically accusing the seller of ripping people off? Myhermes will deliver it for a fiver etc etc etc...

I'm at the point where I ask people to pay by bank transfer or paypal (as a gift) and arrange their own courier - they will only pay what it costs and so any problems with the courier are theirs and easier to sort out without a third party. If a buyer wants the cheapest postage solution then I state that I will not accept responsibility for loss or damage. The risk is theirs. Unfortunately, this method doesn't 'sound' too good to a buyer but at least I can be assured I'm not going to lose out.

It's a shame really as all it takes is a bit of honesty on both sides and if a problem does occur, to try and sort it out amicably...

[BASIC5]

my seller even wrote me that the package was insured... Told me a couple of times that the money would be refunded and.... then disappeared...

[tonybassplayer]

Should this now be a police matter ?? This is not a dispute but a clear case of someone who has set out to de fraud another person and in my book that is a crime ??

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1419537943' post='2640775']


Beg to differ.
My issue wasn't on here and perhaps my naivety was part of the problem
Bass for sale on Gumtree. The guy wanted payment to his account on the Friday night, collection by me on Saturday. I thought ok as I THOUGHT PAINPAL covered these things.
When I got to no 27 of the street stated...... on the Saturday, it didn't exist. It had been flattened. Numbers 1-15 existed, 33-37 existed, 17- 31 on that street had been flattened.
I rang the phone number he had given me. Turned out to be an ansaphone for a Sunday Football League.
So, no bass, no money, no point of contact.
PAINPal said that as it was a payment to a persons account, rather than a payment for specific goods, that they would not cover it.
They changed their minds after some more communication however they finally stated that if there was no money in the sellers account they could only " restrict his account privileges".
There is enough time passed now that I have passed it to my credit card company, as the PAINPal account I set up to buy this bass was fuelled by my credit card. We shall see.
I was reluctant to pay by PAINPal as I was robbed of £600 and a bass by a thieving git in Italy about 5 years ago.

The real point is if you want absolute security, you really need to know all of PAINPal's T and C's.
And by the way, as THE BUYER, PAINPal charged me £27 for the transaction.
NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN.
[/quote]

[karlfer]

[quote name='tonybassplayer' timestamp='1419934858' post='2644021']
Should this now be a police matter ?? This is not a dispute but a clear case of someone who has set out to de fraud another person and in my book that is a crime ??
[/quote]

Nope apparently.
Police said it was civil matter and that I should go through the procedures, namely PAINPal, then credit card co, then small claims.
Small claims should be interesting with a non-existant address and an irrelevant phone number.

[icastle]

[quote name='BASIC5' timestamp='1419933732' post='2644013']
my seller even wrote me that the package was insured... Told me a couple of times that the money would be refunded and.... then disappeared...
[/quote]

I totally missed this at the time.
It's not much consolation and it's very late in the day, but his account is now toast.

[BASIC5]

@ icastle: at that time I wrote Machines a message if there was anything you as mods could do, but he replied that he already left the forum. I totally understand that the possibilities of this forum are limited because of privacy rules. (And it may be said you are doing a good work also!!)

(I don't know if MarkNS4 (or Mark McMillan) is now registrated under another name, in that case: Mark, I have some -bad- words to tell you, English is not my first language, but I reckon you'll understand...you can always contact me!)

Edited December 30, 2014 by BASIC5

[icastle]

[quote name='BASIC5' timestamp='1419956076' post='2644294']
(I don't know if MarkNS4 (or Mark McMillan) is now registrated under another name, in that case: Mark, I have some -bad- words to tell you, English is not my first language, but I reckon you'll understand...you can always contact me!)
[/quote]

I've had a good dig about using some tracking tools and I'm pretty well convinced that he's not opened up a new account.

Your English is just fine.

[BASIC5]

Thanks!

[cloudburst]

Thanks for this thread Ian - a useful reminder.

It's easy to become complacent due to some of the really trusting and trustworthy forum members.

Examples are lapolpora and camdenrob - both of whom have delivered basses to me on trust and prior to payment. Thanks guys!

This thread reminds me to check members out before diving into a transaction. I think the site feedback system, topped up with a good chat on the phone, is a necessary and effective layer of protection for transactions of any significant value.

Thanks again all..

CB

[Mornats]

I've only sold a few things on here but I've always given the buyer my full name, address and mobile number before the transaction. Mainly so they can get in touch with me about anything to do with the sale but also to help reassure them that I'm not gonna do a runner!

[discreet]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1420321637' post='2648136']
I've always given the buyer my full name, address and mobile number before the transaction. Mainly so they can get in touch with me about anything to do with the sale but also to help reassure them that I'm not gonna do a runner!
[/quote]

I do the same - I think it shows you've nothing to hide and of course can be very handy if one's PC and/or internet connection goes tits-up.

[GremlinAndy]

There was a period, and maybe this will put a stop to it, where asking the buyer to use PAYPAL gift was VERY prevalent on these forums.
It was always a deal breaker for me.
For the reason that, as a seller, you should factor in ALL the costs of the item for sale, when posting the price.
On the occasions when I have gifted money, the costs have been just shifted to me!
Plus, the seller expects me to give up all my legal avenues to get my money back, to save THEM some money...?
NOT ON MY WATCH BUDDY!!!

Edited January 7, 2015 by GremlinAndy

[ambient]

As both a seller and a buyer, I always very much prefer to collect, or the buyer to collect (if possible, I know it's not always).

Receiving any kind of payment through Paypal can be risky, not just a payment by their gift scheme.

I read somewhere (may have been on here), someone paid for an item by the normal Paypal method, then collected it in person, and then reported to Paypal that they hadn't received it !

Obviously the guy couldn't provide proof of postage, because there wasn't any, so Paypal found in the buyers favour, leaving the seller without his item, and without the money.

[Black Coffee]

I have avoided paypal after being stung for over £350 for a bass, albeit a long time ago but stung nonetheless. Took weeks to get it back after much jumping through hoops to even get paypal to acknowledge I had a problem.

I have used bank transfer since for anything more than about £25 and I appreciate those who haven't ripped me off. At least bank transfer has a trail to a bank account with an address and a camera shot of the account holder and info about direct debits etc so when its looked into they have a person to look for.

[Thunderbird]

I always use Paypal gift for people I know on the forum but if some one wants to pay via bank transfer or as a paypal sale that is fine with me and I always give the buyer that option via PM and let them know if they pay as a non paypal gift that they have to cover the cost And I always give my address and phone number and coupled with much good feedback shows buyers that you are not a con artist and have nothing to hide

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thunderbird

[skej21]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1419765106' post='2642470']
A lot of dishonest bastards out there... What happened to karlfer above is infruiating, I would not be able to let that lie.. I'd be giving up work and hunting them down!
[/quote]

[tauzero]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1419950200' post='2644225']
Nope apparently.
Police said it was civil matter and that I should go through the procedures, namely PAINPal, then credit card co, then small claims.
Small claims should be interesting with a non-existant address and an irrelevant phone number.
[/quote]

Presumably his Paypal account is linked to at least a credit card or bank account, and that would be linked to his address. Is there a legal means of extracting the information from Paypal and from the bank it's linked to?