Intonation

[wishface]

I've just changed the strings on my bass and the intonation needs some adjustment, particularly on the G string (insert joke here). But no matter how much i push the saddle back (the fretted note on the 12th fret is slightly sharp) it's not making appreciable difference. Consequently if i play the high D note on the 19th fret over the open string below it sounds noticably out of tune. The rest of the bass is fine.

Any advice? I can't keep poushing the saddle back!

[JapanAxe]

When this has happened to me I have had to ditch the strings and start again. Are your strings flats? They are particularly prone to problems if they get twisted, or if you get a kink in them somewhere. I reckon twisting creates additional vibrational modes that do not produce simple harmonic motion (as we physicists say).

[HowieBass]

Yeah sounds like a duff string that might have a kink in it somewhere. Have you tried restringing it (take it off the tuner completely and make sure the ball end isn't binding on any part of the bridge) but if that doesn't work you might have to replace the G (contact the manufacturer - they might send you a free replacement). A saddle significantly out of line with the others usually means it's a bad string.

[wishface]

The strings are roundwound. I've managed to improve things as best as possible, but to get both notes equally in tune is a herculean task.

[umpdv5000]

Hi wishface, I would concour that it's most likely that it's a bad string you've got there. As a repair luthier I can tell you that this is not an uncommon problem with cheap sets of strings (not that I'm implying that yours are a cheap set). Having tried loads of different makes of strings over years, what is apparent is that some of the cheaper brands are not made to a precise standard and you can have the odd string that isn't perfectly round throughout its length. This creats problems with the intonation when you come to set it. You need to ditch the string for another.

A bit of professional advice for buying "cheap" reliable strings... I use this suppliers own brand of strings on all my guitar / bass jobs. They always intonate as they should and are as good as any leading brand elsewhere. www.newstrings.co.uk

[wishface]

How far back is it safe to have the saddle on any given string? There must come a point where the angle is too severe?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1419586351' post='2640996']
How far back is it safe to have the saddle on any given string? There must come a point where the angle is too severe?
[/quote]

No idea but if you have a duff string it hardly matters - it simply will not intonate properly.

[umpdv5000]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1419586351' post='2640996']
How far back is it safe to have the saddle on any given string? There must come a point where the angle is too severe?
[/quote][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]The only limitation you have on pushing the saddle back, is how much your bridge will allow you to do so. If you can intonate at some point, then you may get away with using the string. However, you may get a few wavery overtones from it.[/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]Just as a point... if you're taking the saddle back to extremes, then you should slacken off the string a little every time you move it in that direction, then retune and test. A new string would be best though.[/size][/font]

[wishface]

I think i have it more or less in tune. It plays fine.

I don't theink the string is duff.

[umpdv5000]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]If your 1st string saddle is pulled back further than your 2nd string saddle, then you've got a duff string.[/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]Don't forget to check out that website I posted, it may come in handy for your next string change.[/size][/font]

Edited December 26, 2014 by umpdv5000

[wishface]

I find I have to push the sale back, rather than use the screw to move it. Is this normal? The sale won't move just by turning the screw otherwise.

[HowieBass]

Are you taking up the slack (on the saddle intonation screw) as you push it backwards? It could be just general grime or corrosion clogging the screw threads or you might have run out of available adjustment on the intonation screw itself. Without seeing your bridge it's hard to say for sure. The traditional BBOT Fender style bridges with saddles where the screw passes right through the saddle shouldn't suffer from running out of adjustment - unless, as we've already postulated, the string is bad. You'll probably find it easier to move a saddle if you slacken off the string a little. With a bridge design where the intonation screw 'disappears' into the saddle you've got a limited amount of intonation adjustment - I had a problem with the intonation adjustment available on the saddle for the B string with my Curbow 5 (it's a chunky high-mass style bridge) and I had to shorten the intonation screw in order to get the saddle far enough back to intonate properly - however the saddles now all align as expected for the 5 strings.

[wishface]

What do you mean by taking up the slack? There's no slack, it's tuned.

[HowieBass]

When I asked "Are you taking up the slack (on the saddle intonation screw) as you push it backwards" I was asking if you're turning the screw round as you push the saddle back. Pushing a saddle back without taking the slack up on the intonation screw itself means the saddle isn't very stable. Sorry I couldn't have been any clearer.

[wishface]

OK. No problem.

I've set the bass as best I can. It's more or less in tune, give a few cents. Any other problems are out of my control. I paid £165 for it after all. Can't expect it to start sounding like Jaco!

[mickster]

After changing strings, be sure to push down firmly on the string as it goes over the saddle to set the witness point. If you don't do this, sometimes the intonation can be hard to get right. Details here (point 5) http://www.bassesbyleo.com/intonation_notes.html

[wishface]

You want me to push hard on the string just before the saddle? Is that safe?

Not sure I feel comfortable about this.

[mickster]

Yep. Tune the string to pitch, then give it a firm push downwards just after the saddle on the nut side. Use yr thumb, and apply a firm and steady pressure for a few seconds. The string can take it. Do the same either side of the nut too. There's a good chance your intonation issue will be sorted by this.

Edited December 27, 2014 by mickster

[umpdv5000]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]I would have to disagree and say that method would have little or no effect on the intonation. Occasionally you can get a piano string like sound when a string is plucked open on some instruments. This is caused either by the nut slot being cut incorrectly (too parallel to the fretboard) or the string angle over the nut or bridge saddle is not sufficiently angled. In either of these cases, it is time to have your instrument looked at by a competant repair luthier, having to press your finger hard down to crease the string is frankly nothing short of a joey fix.[/size][/font]

Edited December 28, 2014 by umpdv5000

[mickster]

We seem to have gone from a hard-to-intonate G string, to some nut remodeling and/or bridge saddle re-angling (by a 'competant repair luthier', presumably...) all in the space of a few posts.

It may well be a dodgy string. The OPs bass may even need a new nut or some work doing on its bridge saddles. Hell, it may need a complete refret and levelling. But my joey fix(?) has one undeniable thing in its favour; it takes no more than 10s to try, it costs nowt and it doesn't involve taking the bass to a 'repair luthier', however 'competant'. And, you never know, it might just work...

[umpdv5000]

[quote name='mickster' timestamp='1419732146' post='2642339']
And, you never know, it might just work...
[/quote]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]Do you have to say any words when you do that, like... abracadabra? [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5] [/size][/font][/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]I'm not having a go at you mickster, I just find the idea a bit of a joke. Lets face it, if you've tuned a string to the correct pitch, then it's going to be at the right tension to make any connections over saddles and nuts. Giving it a hard push can only serve to crush a bit of winding on the string and I can't see that as being helpful. Can you?[/size][/font][/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]Truth is, that there are many articles of advice and tips on the net, but you must always bear in mind that they are someones personal ideas and sometimes missguiding. Once again... no offence meant. [/size][/font][/size][/font]

[umpdv5000]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]@mickster .... If you have the need to do that on the saddles of your bass because the string angle isn't quite enough to do it naturally, the cure is to put a shim in the neck socket to give a slight backwards tilt. This will give need for the saddles to be raised to accommodate the tilt and Voila! problem solved. [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5] [/size][/font] [/size][/font]

[EssentialTension]

It looks like someone is shouting.

[umpdv5000]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5]They'll have to shout louder, I've gone really deaf over the years.[/size][/font]

[wishface]

I have it more or less intonated (for practical purposes it's about 99%). The E string was the toughest and is a few cents out. I can't really do any more, the strings probably need to settle.