Can a player ever be too good?

[Rich]

So basically, all this is boiling down to the same old chestnut yet again: [b]Everybody Has A Different Opinion On What Makes A 'Good' Player[/b]. One more time round Piccadilly Circus please, driver.

[bnt]

I agree that "perfection" is subjective, but how do we evaluate players anyway? By what they can and can't play, and I still think that "perfection" would be a player who can play anything and everything, without limitations. However, just because you [i]can[/i], don't mean you [i]should[/i].

I used the example of Geddy Lee earlier: I think that what he does is "accessible" to the likes of me. I bet Geddy's fellow Canuckian, Alain Caron, could fill in for Geddy on the bass (though not on vocals!), while I would not say the opposite is true. Which makes Alain a little "closer to perfection" as a bassist, in my opinion, but less accessible and inspirational to other bassists.

It's like Formula One racing: fast, dangerous, yet somehow uninvolving. These days we look beyond the driving itself for interest e.g. to the fact that Lewis Hamilton is British, or the technology of the cars. The Olympics has the nationalist interest too, but also an amateur feel to it: you don't need massive financial and technical backing to take part (though it does help).

Apart from that, to be honest, I'm not too bothered about getting people to agree with my definitions. It's more important to be happy in your playing, and find inspiration wherever you can; regardless of one's technical level, however you chose to define it.

[4000]

Some of it is to do with context. When I saw Jeff Berlin at Bass day he was playing standards in a trio format and I loved it. However the first time I ever heard him properly was on a free disc which included Manos De Piedra IIRC. I thought his playing was great, but his tone was blah and the music was truly awful.

I love Jimmy Johnson's playing with James Taylor (and much of the fusion stuff I've heard him do), so went to see him last year playing with Allan Holdsworth. I didn't enjoy anything about the gig, even Jimmy's playing, because I didn't enjoy the music (which I half expected). I must clarify that it's not because I don't like fusion; I love RTF, I love Matt Garrison, I love Mahavishnu, but they all have a certain energy and a certain musicality that touches me. The other stuff may have energy and musicality too, but it doesn't communicate to me personally. It's not that I don't understand it, I just don't like it.

The Alain Caron clip is a good example; playing music that I like I may think he's a genius, but I absolutely hate everything about that clip. To reference another thread, I hate John Scofield's and Pat Metheny's guitar playing, and yet think John McLaughlin is one step short of God. So I think it's about finding something that connects with you. If it doesn't, technical or not, chances are it will leave you cold.

[Jase]

I think the musicians/players that are worth anything are the ones who are always trying to better themselves, challenge themselves, the ones that know there is always someone better around the corner and are always willing to learn from other players/musicians. I don't think anybody is too good, nobody is perfect and all that......That would mean as a player, you would have it all, just doesn't happen.

[Bay Splayer]

nobody`s perfect










so



i must be nobody

[Sarah5string]

The only worry I would have is someone who was genuinely very talented and 'perfect' would also have an ego the size of a planet, and would in fact be the most annoying and arrogant person because of how good they KNOW they are.

[Protium]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='259477' date='Aug 10 2008, 06:58 PM']The only worry I would have is someone who was genuinely very talented and 'perfect' would also have an ego the size of a planet, and would in fact be the most annoying and arrogant person because of how good they KNOW they are.[/quote]

This is the point when someone goes from being "good" to being "too good"

[Bilbo]

I have a confession to make! The quote that opened this thread wasn’t complete. It carries on as follows:

[i]'The variation from the exact which is due to incapacity for rendering the exact is, on the whole, ugly. The artist who is to vary effectively from the exact must know the exact and must have mastered its attainment before his emotion can express itself adequately through a sort of flirtation with it’[/i]

In a nutshell, the writers argument is that you need to move away from perfection in order to express emotion in music but, in order to do that effectively, you need to know where perfection is. The argument is not without its flaws where some popular music forms are concerned but, for the developing musician, it is compelling.

[cheddatom]

Pretty much common sense though isn't it? Everyone knows you need to be able to actually play a bassline before you can mess around with it.

[tauzero]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='276039' date='Sep 3 2008, 09:28 AM']I have a confession to make! The quote that opened this thread wasn’t complete. It carries on as follows:

[i]'The variation from the exact which is due to incapacity for rendering the exact is, on the whole, ugly. The artist who is to vary effectively from the exact must know the exact and must have mastered its attainment before his emotion can express itself adequately through a sort of flirtation with it’[/i]

In a nutshell, the writers argument is that you need to move away from perfection in order to express emotion in music but, in order to do that effectively, you need to know where perfection is. The argument is not without its flaws where some popular music forms are concerned but, for the developing musician, it is compelling.[/quote]
Not just know where perfection is, be able to accomplish it. So if you play a bum note because you can't get it right, you're crap, but if you play a bum note deliberately, that's expression. The distinction becomes pointless, though, when you're talking about jazz, which is all about occasionally accidentally hitting the right notes.

[Bilbo]

Have you ever actually heard any jazz?

I think the point is best illustrated by the 'playing ahead of the beat' concept. You need to know where the beat IS before you can play ahead or behind it. If you don't, you will just drag or rush.

You need to be able to play 'inside' before you can play 'outside'. If you can't hear diatonic harmony, 'outside' playing will be just wrong notes. I don't think it is common sense, cheddatom. I think the misunderstanding that many lay people have about jazz/improvised music is based on the fact that they don't understand that you have to be able have a comprehensive, even encyclopeadic, undersatnding of harmony, melody and rhythm before you can 'make it up as you go along'.

People like John Scofield, Pat Metheny and Scott Henderson have all achieved a level of technical proficiency and then built upon it by throwing in some dirt. The results are exquisite.

Edited September 3, 2008 by bilbo230763

[cheddatom]

I think the perception of "bum notes" or deviations from a "perfect" rendition of a bassline is a little irrelevant. That quote should be used as advice for players, not for the audience.

If you see a player deviating from a bassline, you will never know if he's doing it on purpose. The point is that as a player, you should be able to play a line before you deviate from it, otherwise you are just making a hash of a bassline, whether people think you're amazing for it or not.

[tauzero]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='276062' date='Sep 3 2008, 10:03 AM']Have you ever actually heard any jazz?[/quote]
Lots and lots. And I used to play it too, but I got better.

Is there a winding-up smilie?

Anyroadup, if music was entirely about playing notes exactly the right length and exactly the right tone and exactly the right volume, there would be no point in having more than one recording of any piece of music. And there would be no point in having musicians either, as just composing to MIDI would be far less trouble and far cheaper. But that's not really the point, is it? The point is that to know where you're going to, you need to know where you're coming from.

[Bilbo]

Absolutely! Its all about intent vs chaos. I think a lot of developing players thrash about hoping to get something good to happen wihtout understanding the creative process. Guitarists are particularly adept at wiggling their fingers without any real idea of what they are doing but a lot of bassists are the same and the problem is getting worse. I was looking at a Youtube clip recently where the player was 'noodling' and, although there was some technique on show, the results lacked focus and form whereas an improvisation by, say, Dave Holland or Steve Swallow is a little piece of art. The difference is in the knowing, and the results, consequently, have their own internal integrity.

[rjb]

[quote name='silddx' post='258305' date='Aug 8 2008, 04:46 PM']I've never heard Alain Caron so I just looked and listened to this...Leaves me stone cold, it's horrible lifeless sh*t.[/quote]

All that practice and technique and he uses it to play... lift music. Truly awful.

[MoonBassAlpha]

I always chuck in a few "wrong" notes so the audience won't think I'm miming.









Well, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

[johnnylager]

OP - no, just look at Brian Fox, he is perfect.

[chris_b]

"Can a (bass) player ever be too good?"

Certainly, if he's in any band that's playing support to my band!!

[stunbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='257911' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:08 AM'][i]‘In music…pure tone, true pitch, exact intonation, perfect harmony, rigid rhythm, even touch and precise time play a relatively small role. They are mainly points of orientation for art… The unlimited resources for vocal and instrumental expression lie in artistic deviation from the pure, the true, the exact, the perfect, the rigid, the even and the precise. This deviation from the exact is, on the whole, the medium for the creation of the beautiful – for the conveying of emotion’[/i] – Carl E. Seashore.

It’s a good point: is that why players like Alain Caron, Jeff Berlin etc aren’t as successful as their astonishing techniques would lead you expect? Their playing is too perfect, too clinical. Or is this an argument against excessive attention to technique at the expense of musicality?

For those who are interested, Carl Emil Seashore (1866-1949) was a prominent American psychologist who was particularly interested in audiology, the psychology of music, the psychology of speech and stuttering, the psychology of the graphic arts and measuring motivation and scholastic aptitude. He devised the Seashore Tests of Musical Ability in 1919, a version of which is still used in schools in the United States.

Any thoughts anyone?[/quote] The pursuit of perfection is often at the expense of progress .

I like Jeff Berlins playing , but don't much like his music .