DiMarco Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) Hey everyone, I have been thinking about downsizing from my 2x15" to a 2x12" cab or two 1x12" cabs. I know nowadays 2x12" cabs go really low and loud and can sound pretty impressive solo. But the fact is the speaker surface is only about two thirds of that of a 4x10 and even less then that of a 2x15 This worries me. My current 2x15" sounds MASSIVE in average sized pubs and has tons of headroom. I am not talking about lots of low end swamping the rest of the band, just about it sounding "big" and I am worried even the best of 2x12" cabs (berg, vanderkley, barefaced etc.) won't ever get such a firm grip on the room. So here's my question: Have any of you made the switch from 2x15 to 2x12? And if so, does it sound big enough for a gigging oldskool rock group with a hard hitting drummer? Cheers for sharing any experience. Edited December 29, 2014 by DiMarco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 [quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1419885381' post='2643659'] ...does it sound big enough for a gigging oldskool rock group with a hard hitting drummer? [/quote] In short - yes. I've used a Barefaced Super Twelve in that situation with great results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martthebass Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I've moved from single 15 to 2 x 12 and not regretted it. Not exactly answering your question but I don't have any problem being heard above a loud drummer and loud guitarist in a pub scenario. I find using 2 12s rather than a single cab option to be more flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I use a Barefaced super twin 212 and our drummer is a hard hitter, rarely need to turn the amp (Ashdown ABM 500) more than 1/3 up on the master volume. Far better than the Ashdown 410 I had before that, and certainly an unimaginable improvement on the 215 I used in the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 [quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1419885381' post='2643659'] But the fact is the speaker surface is only about two thirds of that of a 4x10 and even less then that of a 2x15 [/quote]Moot. Speaker surface is only two dimensions. The third dimension is excursion, xmax, and that, combined with the surface area, Sd, gives you the all important spec: Displacement, Vd. The bad news is that most commercial cabs don't reveal the Vd of the drivers used, so you have no basis for comparison between them. If you can find out what drivers are used you can look up the Vd on the driver manufacturer spec sheets, but speaker manufacturers aren't forthcoming about the drivers that they employ either. For the most part that means having to try before you buy, to be sure that what you're considering meets your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I`ve used two 12s for a good while now. I was always either a 412 or 410 & 210 player (so no 2x15 experience), but back decided these weren`t any good for me. I fully expected to lose some sound quality but being able to stand straight without pain was good enough for me. However I had no issues with the sound, was pleasantly surprised in fact. First rig was a Markbass 112 combo with 112 ext cab, then went Markbass 212 cab (the one I`m selling below). Currently using Barefaced Super12T 2x12 cab. A good 212 set-up I find is plenty for pub gigs, and on bigger stages too (cos if really big FOH & monitors should be brought into play). For reference, I play punk in a rather noisy band, and I`ve been b*ll*cked a couple of times for swamping the sound with too much bass at rehearsals, when trying out different sounds for the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 A pair of 12's - or a single 2x12 - easily does the job for me. Just get something that can handle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Steve Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I can only relate my experience but I did not think the 2x12 I tried (with a Boogie valve head) - light though it was - had the same presence. I fully accept that it may be a psycho-acoustic trick and the speakers can shift the same air as my 2x15 but there wasn't the same effect. It wasn't an unpleasant sound but just not the same for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiMarco Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Thanks guys some valid points in both directions... Still haven't decided yet wether or not to spend money on 12 inch. Bill, with the larger xmax but smaller surface area, isn't the 12" pushing less air harder and because of that having a radically different dispersion? Just wondering in which aspects (if any) this makes the smaller speaker behave in relation to room acoustics. Am I overthinking? Edited December 30, 2014 by DiMarco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) [quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1419923660' post='2643931'] Am I overthinking? [/quote] Yes. Try a 2x12 or two 1x12s and then see what you think. Edited December 30, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 There's also the question of sound dispersal. I used to have a 1x15 and 4x10 setup way back. If I could hear it well enough it would be blowing the windows out at the back of the room. I now use a 2x12 cab which I can hear very well on stage but the gig volume is (so I'm told) on the button. It's plenty loud by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 How loud are you playing your 215? What amp and volume are you using? While MASSIVE isn't a technical term I can say that my 212 with a 500 watt amp sounds like that in all of the bands I play in. These days there are a few 212's out there pushing as much air as your 215's, so the size of the speakers is not something to get hung up about. On the other hand, a 212 [i]will[/i] sound different, so you'd better get out and start listening to 212's and decide if that is your sound or not. That's not over thinking, it's just being careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 My Tech 2x12 sounds massive, and is not much bigger than a 1x12. How is this possible you cry? Details here in the for sale thread. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/223936-tech-soundsystems-2x12-cab/page__fromsearch__1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Have these 'issues' come about since you took delivery of the Mesa Boogie prodigy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 [quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1419923660' post='2643931'] Bill, with the larger xmax but smaller surface area, isn't the 12" pushing less air harder and because of that having a radically different dispersion? Just wondering in which aspects (if any) this makes the smaller speaker behave in relation to room acoustics. [/quote]Twelves do have different dispersion than fifteens, it's wider, and that's better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I went from 1x15 +210 and/or 410 to a 212 and I don't think the 'downgrade' is/was too significant. I still use a 212 and 210 for the best gigs but a good 212 is a very capable cab, IMO, esp with a good horn. I'd be surprised if it didn't outclass an older 2x15 set-up... I think Aguilar DB212 is a cracking do-it-all-most cab.. I don't REALLY need to put a 210 on top but sometimes I just will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiMarco Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 [quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1419941693' post='2644109'] Have these 'issues' come about since you took delivery of the Mesa Boogie prodigy? [/quote] Issues is a big word. The amp is smaller and 10kg lighter then the AH400SMX so I figured why not go more portable with the cab as well? I have no experience using only 2x12 though so am hesitating to take the plunge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 The Genz Benz NX2-212T I just sold sounded immense,best cab I ever used,just my dodgy knee didn't like me carrying it around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) [quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1419952834' post='2644271'] I have no experience using only 2x12 though so am hesitating to take the plunge. [/quote] Alex at Barefaced has a scheme whereby you can try a cab for a month and give it a workout. If you don't like it you can return it for a refund (minus return shipping cost). Edited December 30, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Steve Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Have to say that my experience killed off any desire to go down that route. It was a Prodigy into a BF 2x12. I know the massive you mean and it just wasn't there. Save your money - though not your back. Maybe an old BF 2x15 will come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 [quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1419960950' post='2644376'] ...my experience killed off any desire to go down that route. It was a Prodigy into a BF 2x12. I know the massive you mean and it just wasn't there. [/quote] I find that hard to understand! My experience with a BF 2x12 was exactly the opposite. Oh well - horses for courses, one man's meat, if everyone was the same life would be boring, and so on and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Obbm is using his Prodigy with a Berg CN212 with great success. Might be worth sending him a message. I'm a huge fan of Berg cabs too. Beautifully built and sound excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Steve Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1419963127' post='2644413'] I find that hard to understand! My experience with a BF 2x12 was exactly the opposite. Oh well - horses for courses, one man's meat, if everyone was the same life would be boring, and so on and so forth. [/quote] Absolutely, I am just giving my own opinion based on my experience. There is no right or wrong about it - although there are those who appear to think there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ern500evo Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) My previous two cab set ups have been an 8x10 and then a 1x15 paired with either a 4x10 or 2x10, haven't used a 2x15 since my old Peavey rig about 25 years ago. I now use a Barefaced Big Twin 2 paired with either a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 or a TC RH750 and certainly don't miss any of my old big rigs. Don't get me wrong, if I had a roadie and someone else transporting stuff for me, I'd happily have a row of SVT 8x10's or Mesa Powerhouse cabs behind me but I don't have that luxury! I love the sound of the Barefaced, I think I'm one of the few who like the look of it, and when I'm loading into my house at 2am and not scraping my knuckles on the door frame its a godsend! There's some great 2x12's out there now, best thing is to try some out. The TKS's are getting a lot of love at the moment, and if the Berg NV I once had a play through was anything to go by the CN cabs will be beautifully made. Edited December 30, 2014 by ern500evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 [quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1419973917' post='2644575'] I am just giving my own opinion based on my experience. There is no right or wrong about it - although there are those who appear to think there is. [/quote] Well... having looked at your sig I see two Mesa 400s and a Diesel... I really don't think there's much else on the planet that will give you that kind of tube-power slam, so now I understand totally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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