Modes

[grumpyguts]

Excuse me if this sounds like the ramblings of an idiot but for those who don't get modes this is how I see it.

When doing a bit of practice (farting around) I play what in my mind are "extensions" of scales. For example I play the G major scale starting from position two (A) and move the scale up the neck. This process continues until I get back to the G octave on the E string.

I noticed that the pattern of my extension from position two was the same as the Dorian mode. Its clear that what I considered scale extensions were actually modes, to me this was a bit of a revelation and makes sense.

To remember the order of the modes I came up with the following line...

I Do Prefer Ladies Marvellous And Lovely.

Ionan
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

[Bilbo]

HOW you make sense of it is up to you but it's fantastic that you do. Good work.

[72deluxe]

Is it that simple? Basically the major scale but starting on a different place in the scale?

Or have I misunderstood?

[leftybassman392]

Yup, that's it.

If you take each of the 7 notes from the original major scale in turn and play an octave up from each of those start points (using the notes from the original scale of course...), you will have played the 7 modes in sequence. Everything else follows from that.

If you want to explore it a bit further, you can do the same with any 7-note scale - the Altered Scale beloved of many Jazz players is actually the 7th mode of the (ascending) Melodic minor scale.

Edited January 6, 2016 by leftybassman392

[Acebassmusic]

Yip, it really is that simple When I realised it, there was a resounding clunk that could be heard for miles around....lol. I can now see the mode "patterns" on the fretboard which also allow me to work out the other possible song chords!

[72deluxe]

Can you take any scale and apply the same approach to it though? eg. minor blues scale. What does that get called?

Further how does it fit over the "key" of a song? eg. in traditional rock/pop songs we typically play the root notes of the chord for that section. If we start running up and down a mode of the scale used for that passage, it'll sound crackers surely?
eg. if a section is in D, we could just run up and down D major or a mode. If it is just playing notes from the same scale but starting on a different point, what difference does that make?? It is the same notes, surely?

I don't get how it helps. Hopefully my question makes sense?

[leftybassman392]

In principle you can do it with any scale ('mode' is usually read as 'mood', so that each mode has it's own character - which it gets from the placement of the notes); it's just that the standard Major scale is the one that most people work from. (Each mode functions as a scale in it's own right by the way, just for the avoidance of doubt - in any given section of music you'll be playing within the confines of the modal scale you're using: it's not a free-for-all...)

It also depends how adventurous you want to be. You can still get away with just playing roots and fifths, but things start to get interesting when you want to work a bit more with the chord harmonies - for any given mode, you can build chords in exactly the same way as you do with the standard major scale. You may find it useful to start playing around with thirds, fifths and sevenths. Once you understand how it all fits together, you'll be able to expand your horizons.

It does depend a bit on your playing style of course. Not everybody will need to know about major sevenths...

Hope that helps.


Edit to add: try not to overthink it. There's a lot to be said for taking each mode in turn and just playing around with it for a while - get used to where the notes are. As others have said, sooner or later the penny will drop, and then you'll be fine and will probably wonder why you ever had any problems with it.

One final thing that might be worth adding is that not everybody believes in modes. If you're playing what you want to play and it sounds like you want it to, then what's the problem?

Edited January 6, 2016 by leftybassman392

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452088659' post='2946248']
If you want to explore it a bit further, you can do the same with any 7-note scale - the Altered Scale beloved of many Jazz players is actually the 7th mode of the (ascending) Melodic minor scale.
[/quote]

See also the use of fifth mode of the harmonic minor (sometimes referred to as the "Dominant Phrygian") in [i]Gates of Babylon [/i]by Rainbow. Apparently Ritchie Blackmore is very fond of that particular mode.

[72deluxe]

Thank you, that helps a bit. I suspect I am overthinking it. I have always added runs in my playing that are basically going up and down a scale (or pausing and doing it twice, for interest...), but based on the "root" (dominant?) key of what we are playing in, is it permissible to play any of the modes over it?

I am mainly hung up on the fact that the actual notes played are all [i]identical[/i] between the modes. If a song is in E minor, I know I can play G major over the top and they are identical notes. This is a mode, surely?

But they are still the same notes so I don't fully understand (at all?) how it helps with playing because I'll still be putting in exactly the same notes. So the mood of the song does not suddenly change, as they are the same notes.

[Sibob]

Another fun trick is considering your root chord as if it were the second degree of the scale (or Dorian), and playing over the then equivalent Ionian.
So if in D minor, try playing around your C Major scale

Si

[Sibob]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452091383' post='2946281']
Thank you, that helps a bit. I suspect I am overthinking it. I have always added runs in my playing that are basically going up and down a scale (or pausing and doing it twice, for interest...), but based on the "root" (dominant?) key of what we are playing in, is it permissible to play any of the modes over it?

I am mainly hung up on the fact that the actual notes played are all [i]identical[/i] between the modes. If a song is in E minor, I know I can play G major over the top and they are identical notes. This is a mode, surely?

But they are still the same notes so I don't fully understand (at all?) how it helps with playing because I'll still be putting in exactly the same notes. So the mood of the song does not suddenly change, as they are the same notes.
[/quote]

You're effectively talking about relative minors really, Eminor is the relative minor of Gmajor, same notes. So in C, A minor (the Aeolian) is relative minor and so same notes.

Si

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1452091689' post='2946286']
But... er... notes are always in the same place, aren't they?
[/quote]

Not if I fiddle with your tuners before you go onstage!

[/maniacal laughter]

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452091383' post='2946281']
Thank you, that helps a bit. I suspect I am overthinking it. I have always added runs in my playing that are basically going up and down a scale (or pausing and doing it twice, for interest...), but based on the "root" (dominant?) key of what we are playing in, is it permissible to play any of the modes over it?

I am mainly hung up on the fact that the actual notes played are all [i]identical[/i] between the modes. If a song is in E minor, I know I can play G major over the top and they are identical notes. This is a mode, surely?

But they are still the same notes so I don't fully understand (at all?) how it helps with playing because I'll still be putting in exactly the same notes. So the mood of the song does not suddenly change, as they are the same notes.
[/quote]

They are the same notes, but their position within the scale alters as you play the different modes. Example:

Let's say you're playing in C. major, you have the notes C(root), D(2nd), E(maj 3rd), and so on. If you then find yourself playing in A Aeolian then the C becomes the min 3rd, D becomes a perf 4th and E is the perf 5th ( all against a root note of A). If you now move to E Phrygian, C becomes the flat 6th, D the flat 7th and E is now the root. Same notes, different names.

Does that clarify things?

Edited January 6, 2016 by leftybassman392

[72deluxe]

Do relative minors === modes?

If I am playing a series of notes in a scale but start on a different note in that scale and go up to the same note an octave above following the order of the original scale, [u]so what[/u]? I don't understand how or more importantly [i]why[/i] this is important.

To me, it's like saying salt is in food A and also in food B, isn't it wonderful and life changing !! But surely salt is still just salt, wherever it appears in the recipe.

Sorry about this; I have never had a good explanation of why this is so important/life changing and I always feel I am missing something. My book on music theory discussed medieval modes and it didn't help in the slightest.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1452091689' post='2946286']
But... er... notes are always in the same place, aren't they?
[/quote]

Where the notes are within each mode. See above...

[72deluxe]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452091965' post='2946291']
Same notes, different names.
[/quote]

Is the fact that they have different names important in a fundamental way that I am completely missing?

Thanks for taking the time to explain this BTW. Sorry about my confusion; I hear guitarists using modes (Steve Vai, Satriani) all the time (eg favouring Lydian) but I haven't the foggiest why it is working, how it is important, or how it works, particularly as they are the SAME notes between all the modes.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452092477' post='2946300']
Is the fact that they have different names important in a fundamental way that I am completely missing?

[/quote]

Short answer, yes it looks that way.

To (briefly) reiterate, each mode is a scale in it's own right, with it's own character. Within any scale (modal or otherwise) each note in the scale has a specific relationship with the root note of that scale. In a C major scale the root note is a C, so the E will be a major 3rd and G will be a perfect 5th; when you play them together you get a C major chord. The relationship of each note to the current root note is central to the whole idea of musical harmony. All modes do is to change the position of the root note (which in turn means that all the other notes will have a different relationship to it). As I said before, you have to learn to think of each mode as a completely new scale. If you play a piece using the scale of E Phrygian, you're using the same notes as the ones you would use in C Major, but instead of having the 3rd and 5th at E and G respectively you now have them at G and B, and if you now play E, G and B together you get an E Minor chord (sometimes called the root chord for the E Phrygian scale).

Edited January 6, 2016 by leftybassman392

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452090565' post='2946267']for any given mode, you can build chords in exactly the same way as you do with the standard major scale.[/quote]

So is the first chord of D Dorian D Minor? Second E Minor etc.?

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1452093561' post='2946320']
So is the first chord of D Dorian D Minor? Second E Minor etc.?
[/quote]

Yes.

It wouldn't do any harm to take a few minutes to assemble the 1-3-5 chords for each note in the D Dorian scale. Don't worry if the chord at B looks a bit odd - it's meant to.

[leftybassman392]

I'm going out for a short walk now and will be back in a little while. Doctor's orders.

It can be a bit of a brainmelter - a short pause might be a good idea at this point, just to give you some time to get your head around it.

[72deluxe]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452093416' post='2946319']
All modes do is to change the position of the root note (which in turn means that all the other notes will have a different relationship to it).
[/quote]

That was the missing piece of information! You can put the triads of [i]that[/i] mode (essentially the building blocks of chords) over the "original" scale?

As you can tell, I have not finished reading my "bass harmony" book.... I gleaned the information regarding 3rds and 5ths from playing rock all this time, by chance. But did not try wandering further up the scale and layering that over the root.
Have you ever considered writing a book?

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452093997' post='2946329']
Yes.

It wouldn't do any harm to take a few minutes to assemble the 1-3-5 chords for each note in the D Dorian scale. Don't worry if the chord at B looks a bit odd - it's meant to.
[/quote]

Seems obvious now they are exactly the same as the triads for C Major, and why wouldn't they be given they all have the same notes. It also means I know how to arpegiate all the 7 chords for the modes too.

Still no idea how that is ever going to apply to a musical situation though.

Is anyone ever going to say it is a II, V, 1 in D Dorian?

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1452095967' post='2946357']
Still no idea how that is ever going to apply to a musical situation though.

Is anyone ever going to say it is a II, V, 1 in D Dorian?
[/quote]

Think of it more as opening up your options. For example, compare the Phrygian with the minor pentatonic: the same notes appear in both scales, but the Phrygian gives you some very colourful extras in between. So the next time you get called upon to take a bass solo at your local blues jam, you could always whip that out and give them a surprise!

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452094350' post='2946333']
That was the missing piece of information! You can put the triads of [i]that[/i] mode (essentially the building blocks of chords) over the "original" scale?[/quote]

In a word, yes. Once you know where the root note for the new mode is you just transfer everything into the new positions. In fact all the chords from the original scale are still available; all that's changed is the priorities. A good exercise would be to write down the I, IV and V chords for each mode (the Locrian is a bit fiddly, but worth the effort).

[quote]
Have you ever considered writing a book?
[/quote]

I don't have the patience to write a book I don't think (and in any case there's an excellent series of articles on the subject by Major Minor at the top of this forum), but I have done a series of articles - on this very forum in fact. It's on Ancient Greek music. Bit of a special interest thing I know, but just something that I've always been interested in (and was inspired by an early discussion on modes here on the forum). I keep meaning to go back and take up where I left off, but it hasn't happened yet...

Edited January 6, 2016 by leftybassman392

[The Jaywalker]

The most important and fundamental issue when thinking about modes is to realise that they are ONLY modes in 2 specific situations:

1) when we're dealing with where a scale/mode comes from, eg D Dorian. It's a scale in its own right, but we could talk of it as being the 2nd mode of the major scale. This is useful for fingerboard knowledge or practising and learning scales - but it is VITAL to learn and regard each scale as a distinct entity rather than eg, C major starting on D.

2) when we're playing Modal music. So What would be a good example of this (and it's also Dorian). Modal music doesn't have a chord progression or harmonic structure as such; it's based around the characteristics of the mode in question.

The real deal is to learn the individual scales in their own right and where to use them. This is where chords and harmony come in. In fact, the term "chord scales" is widely used - as a scale is simply an extended chord expressed differently. To explain, let's consider that mode V of harmonic minor (Deep Purple liked that one).
We're in A minor, so chord V is E7
If we extend that chord by adding the 9th, 11th and 13th from within the key we get the b9 (F), 11th (A) and b13th (C).
Notes of the full chord of E7b9b13 = EG#BDFAC
Notes of scale = EFG#ABCD

Going back to D Dorian: it's usually played over a minor7th chord - DFAC. 9th, 11th and 13th are EGC...put those notes together as a scale instead of stacked like a chord and we have D Dorian.

So when it comes down to it - if the music you're playing doesn't have any maj7#11 chords in it; then the Lydian scale probably isn't really something to worry about.

It's vital not to fall into the common (and widely promulgated) trap of thinking "it's all the same notes so I can play any of the major modes I want". It just sounds like disconnected noodling - although, to be fair, it's a logical conclusion to draw when you first start learning about this stuff. I certainly did.

In conclusion, some of what I've said might be confusing or tricky to understand depending on your theory chops, which is fine.
To put it simply - DON'T learn modes. Chances are it'll lead you up the garden path. Been there! Learn what scales work with what chords and go from there. Sure, some/many of these scales will turn out to be modes of a parent scale - but that has no bearing on how you actually play or apply them in most musical situations.