Beer of the Bass Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I'd be interested to here from drummers and sound guys on this one. I play with a drummer who prefers not to have a hole in his kick drum skin. This keeps meeting with the disapproval of sound guys, to the point that we've had a message from the promoter of our next gig asking "has your drummer put a hole in his bass drum yet?". I'm just wondering, why the pressure? Are kick drums particularly tough to mic up without the hole? Is hole versus no hole like the drummers version of pick versus fingers or something? Edited January 7, 2015 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'm not a drummer, but guys I've played with in the past, seem to suggest that it's some kind of an aid to tuning and a very personal preference. IIRC, the sound can be easily messed up if the hole is too large, or cut into the resonating skin in the wrong place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moos3h Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I've always much preferred the sound with the hole (I drummed for years) and find that it makes mic'ing a breeze. I like the mic'd sound more too as you hear more of the beater 'click' as you're closer to the batter head. [size=4]One issue with not having one can be a greater chance of feedback as the mic has to be out of the drum therefore greater chance of picking up what's coming back from the FoH or monitors.[/size] It's nothing a decent sound engineer can't get past but if you're tight on time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Never had a problem micing a kick without a hole Having said that I prefer the sound of a mic inside the drum, for which a hole is essential I leave the front (or back?) head off my kick drums as I prefer that "slap" sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBike Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 He/you could always get another kick drum skin and cut a hole in it that he can use for those gigs that need it. Since you can get a kick drum skin for less than £20, to me that sounds like an easy and relatively economical solution to the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jecklin Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Can of worms I'll generalise based on my own experiences (as musician). Having a complete front skin gives a different sound to a ported skin. Sound engineers like the port because it allows them to get the microphone isolated better from the rest of the kit. Generally the louder the drummer/band the more "important" this becomes. I sthe bigger the venue and PA the less of the acoustic drum sound the audience will hear, so engineers like to have the control over every elemt of a kit ie mics everywhere. This is where it gets contentious - the best drummers I have played with didn't use ported kick drums (nor did they have damping on their drums either). However I stopped playing in venues where the pa was anything other than gentle support to the stage sound. If you're going to be playing venues who insist on micing the kick through a port your drummer will have to grin and bear it, but I sympathise as the front skin can contribute a lot to a lovely bass drum sound (is nice decay rather than a clicky thunk) but it depends on what sound you're going for. I'd be interested to hear from engineers here who have had to mic an unpirted kick drum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Drummer in my band has no hole and we position the mic on the drummers side next to the beater about an inch away from the skin. I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's better or worse than mic'ing through a hole though, never had a chance to AB it! It's a small pain in the arse manoeuvring a boom stand around cymbal stands and the floor tom but we get there in the end! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='Jecklin' timestamp='1420630339' post='2651437'] This is where it gets contentious - the best drummers I have played with didn't use ported kick drums (nor did they have damping on their drums either). [/quote] Fair enough to prefer no port, but no dampening?!? Surely a kick drum sounds sh*te with no dampening? I'll have to try this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In my experience mainly as a front of house sound man (and a bit of studio) - if you're mainly after attack, then close mic'ing the head is the best way. The easiest way to do this would be to put the mic inside the drum via the hole, or if a drummer doesn't have/refuses to make a hole, close mic from next to the beater, like Truckstop said. If you want more of the drum's rumble and sound, then you mic at the hole so that you have direct attack and "colouration". I always found that mic'ing a non ported drum head on the front side meant that you didn't get much attack, and was difficult to use in a live stage environment due to rumble and feedback caused by needing to push the gain further. However, I'm sure there will be others who have worked in much better sound environments who will say I'm talking codswallop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1420630667' post='2651444'] Fair enough to prefer no port, but no dampening?!? Surely a kick drum sounds sh*te with no dampening? I'll have to try this [/quote] Hmmm! - My own kit I'd use no dampening [i]inside[/i] the bass drum. My tuning was somewhere between the Bob Gatzen method and something a drumming friend showed me. Using Evans heads with the foam dampening ring on I could get a really deep punch but a nice click too by not using a felt beater. On the odd occasion I put a little tape on the res head if it rang a bit too much but careful tuning seem to reward me with compliments over the kit sound. Which is superb, as I'd never say I was a 'proper' drummer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='dood' timestamp='1420631496' post='2651461'] Hmmm! - My own kit I'd use no dampening [i]inside[/i] the bass drum. My tuning was somewhere between the Bob Gatzen method and something a drumming friend showed me. Using Evans heads with the foam dampening ring on... [/quote] I guess your foam ring has a similar effect to the small jumper I have pushed against the head. I've watched Bob Gatzen's videos and he always seems to use some form of dampening on the kick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jecklin Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1420630667' post='2651444'] Fair enough to prefer no port, but no dampening?!? Surely a kick drum sounds sh*te with no dampening? I'll have to try this [/quote] Sorry cheddatom, I should have qualified my statement. This was never in a conventional rock setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='Jecklin' timestamp='1420631748' post='2651471'] Sorry cheddatom, I should have qualified my statement. This was never in a conventional rock setting. [/quote] What sort of music does this sound suit? I play in a reggae band and a folk band (as well as a rock band) and I feel I get much more "punch" without the front head and with some dampening. Without dampening it's just too wild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 OK, so it's very much a personal preference thing for drummers. It's a small Gretsch kit and seems fairly lively sounding to my ears - not really a rock setup. I think it's the tone of some of the sound guys and this promoter that I'm finding odd, really. If they want to have a quiet grumble about it I can understand that, but expecting the drummer to modify his gear to suit them seems a bit off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 if he doesn't like a hole, don't mic it up, it only invades our frequency space anyway, I bloody hate over loud kick drums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1420632069' post='2651478'] .... but expecting the drummer to modify his gear to suit them seems a bit off. [/quote] In allusion to my previous post - I have been known to "suggest" to drummers to cut holes in their bass drum skin or take the front skin off, but this was usually to those that were insistent on a particular sound that we couldn't get because they didn't have a hole and we had a very lively/noisy stage with other band members and monitors. We certainly never forced anyone to do it. I know as a drummer myself, I would have never been happy to take a stanley knife to my drum skin but I did take mine off a few times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1420632474' post='2651491'] I know as a drummer myself, I would have never been happy to take a stanley knife to my drum skin but I did take mine off a few times! [/quote] Taking the skin off for those gigs could maybe be a good middle ground. I might suggest that! Edited January 7, 2015 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moos3h Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Slightly drifting off topic but I cannot recommend the Evans EMAD batter head enough for those wondering about exploring removing the old pillow/duvet from their bass drums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Can of worms, indeed..! There is an entire science and voodoo involved in micing up almost all acoustic instruments, and drums are no exception. Try asking an acoustic double bass player to cut a port into his/her instrument as it's 'easier mic up that way'. No luck, eh..? Not surprised. There are questions of musical genre, fashion and competence, both of the drummer and the engineer. The sound wanted for the genre by the drummer has to be transmitted to the public by the FOH, so some understanding of all the parameters is required by all. If we include tuning and damping, things are further complicated. No, I don't want a port in my bass drum; it's tuned to not need one acoustically. For acoustic micing, an external mic is fine. If the batter head sound is required, I've a Superlux FK2 fitted inside the shell, and an xlr for feeding the console. Problem solved. I'm not a violent person in general, but would take amiss the cutting of a port (especially if it was just a 'gash' hole, with no thought of respecting the instrument...), and corporal damage could result. Maybe a hole cut into the bass cab to facilitate mic placing..? No..? Didn't think so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moos3h Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Who mic's these days anyway? Roland kick trigger + TD module and we're done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1420633948' post='2651516'] I've a Superlux FK2 fitted inside the shell [/quote] I was going to suggest just that (well not exact mic but the concept!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1420631691' post='2651469'] I guess your foam ring has a similar effect to the small jumper I have pushed against the head. I've watched Bob Gatzen's videos and he always seems to use some form of dampening on the kick? [/quote] Yes, yes he does - hence my 'somewhere between the..' comment I added. Instead of using dampening in the drum I moved mine to the batter head. I couldn't remember the name of the head but I see that Moos3h mentioned the EMAD head and I believe that's the one! So yes, the foam ring does indeed have the same effect that a jumper does resting up against the head. However I think that there is a train of thought that a rolled up jumper, pillow, blanket or coat has additional 'dampening qualities' inside the drum (As do professional damping products.) My own kit didn't seem to need it but that's by no means an indicator of what is right or wrong, just my experience with this particular kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenitram Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Man, I had a pillow, a blanket and half of my wardrobe in my bass drum. My toms had huge wads of padded gaffa tape on them, and my snare was no different. It sounded amazing. Or rubbish. I can't remember. These days it's a Triggera Krigg and a pedal with the beater removed: http://triggera.com/kick-pedal-trigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If you're playing drums in a marching band you're likely playing outside, and fighting to be heard above brass players, so you'll need as much volume as you can get. As with most bass gear, damping improves the tone of a drum kit in a rock environment. You don't want the note to ring on and interfere with the other notes being played, you want it to punch through and then die. You don't see many beer mats gaffered to skins these days but they performed the same function. I love Micky Waller's sound. I play with a couple of drummers using Jazz type setups on their kits. With their "polite" and toppy sound they don't sound half as good as the regular rock guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottle Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just throwing my tuppence in the ring. Is there room on stage to get a full drum screen round (or at least gobo off the bass drum)? If mic'ing the bass drum from the 'front' i.e resonant side is problematic could the PA engineer use a modified spaced pair [i]a la[/i] the RecorderMan technique to get the full kit sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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