Holes in kick drums

[Dad3353]

Not quite on topic, but, with a younger brother, we were looking to get an authentic 'reggae' bass drum, several decades ago; our definitive solution was an enormous plush ladybird stuffed into a plastic bucket and whacked with a wooden spoon. So much for purists, 'fine tuning' and technical gubbins. If it works, it works. [size=4] [/size]

[cheddatom]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1420635131' post='2651538']
Yes, yes he does - hence my 'somewhere between the..' comment I added. Instead of using dampening in the drum I moved mine to the batter head. I couldn't remember the name of the head but I see that Moos3h mentioned the EMAD head and I believe that's the one! So yes, the foam ring does indeed have the same effect that a jumper does resting up against the head. However I think that there is a train of thought that a rolled up jumper, pillow, blanket or coat has additional 'dampening qualities' inside the drum (As do professional damping products.) My own kit didn't seem to need it but that's by no means an indicator of what is right or wrong, just my experience with this particular kit.
[/quote]

Cool, those EMAD heads look ace, might have to get one!

[Guest Jecklin]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1420631980' post='2651477']


What sort of music does this sound suit? I play in a reggae band and a folk band (as well as a rock band) and I feel I get much more "punch" without the front head and with some dampening. Without dampening it's just too wild
[/quote]

Jazz man

That slow decay and rumble, ooh yeah!!
You got to coax the sound from the drum though, not stomp it

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1420630667' post='2651444']


Fair enough to prefer no port, but no dampening?!? Surely a kick drum sounds sh*te with no dampening? I'll have to try this
[/quote]Bonham!?

[MoonBassAlpha]

Jimmy Evil, a guy who does sound at the Cellar in Oxford, made a drummer take the head off his bass drum, as he insisted it would sound rubbish if he didn't. He does the sound there a lot, and it usually sounds good in there. The drummer clearly didn't want to do it either!

[Beer of the Bass]

Wow, it gets weirder! I messaged the promoter back to say yes, we'd bring a drum kit and guitar amp but the drummer doesn't want to put a hole in his kick (it's a multi-band lineup with some gear sharing going on) and she replied;
"I'll see if i can get another kit, i'll let u know if i can. It just compromises the bands sound a bit, and makes sound checks take longer."
So this insistence on having a hole in the kick means we're pretty much being told not to use our own kit. How bizarre!

Edited January 7, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[mcnach]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1420657987' post='2651868']
Wow, it gets weirder! I messaged the promoter back to say yes, we'd bring a drum kit and guitar amp but the drummer doesn't want to put a hole in his kick (it's a multi-band lineup with some gear sharing going on) and she replied;
"I'll see if i can get another kit, i'll let u know if i can. It just compromises the bands sound a bit, and makes sound checks take longer."
So this insistence on having a hole in the kick means we're pretty much being told not to use our own kit. How bizarre!
[/quote]

Is this for Saturday?

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1420659482' post='2651896'] Is this for Saturday? [/quote]

It is indeed. I'm sure we can sort something between the bands, but it does seem like an odd thing for the promoter to be so preoccupied with.

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1420655097' post='2651814']
Jimmy Evil, a guy who does sound at the Cellar in Oxford, made a drummer take the head off his bass drum, as he insisted it would sound rubbish if he didn't. He does the sound there a lot, and it usually sounds good in there. The drummer clearly didn't want to do it either!
[/quote]

short sentence got 3 f's in it.......

seriously there are ways to get a good sound out of a kick drum without cutting a hole in the front head

[Old_Ben]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1420660340' post='2651914']

seriously there are ways to get a good sound out of a kick drum without cutting a hole in the front head
[/quote]

Put a trigger on it and use sampled MIDI?

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1420660340' post='2651914']


short sentence got 3 f's in it.......

seriously there are ways to get a good sound out of a kick drum without cutting a hole in the front head
[/quote]
I dare say there are (don't know too much about it myself) but there is a hell of a lot of pressure to comply with the sound guy for fear of getting a sh*tty sound. And this instance was taking the head right off, not making a hole in it.

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='Old_Ben' timestamp='1420661243' post='2651934']
Put a trigger on it and use sampled MIDI?
[/quote]

is a way and is used far more predominantly with big gigs than most people realised especially in the metal world

another way is to mic the kick from the beater head as has been said before (if the sound guy says that its too much effort it requires moving the kick mic on a stand from the front of the drum to the back)

another way is to use one of these and have your own mic permanently placed inside the kick but tbh that kinda defeats the object of having a solid reso head because its not the sound the drummer is going for not having a hole in the kick

the other option (and this is a controversial one) mic the drum from the front exactly the same as you would with one with a hole the mic won't lie it will sound like the kick drum that its mic'ing up which is how the drummer wants it to sound......

kick drums without holes have a very particular sound (think 70's bonham as an example) which is right for some bands but not for other i would imagine this is the motivation for Beer of the Bass's promoter asking for a kick with a hole in if theres gear share involved

but if you're playing your own gig with your own gear then its up to you how you use your gear.

would you for example take out a pedal you were using because the soundman asked you to?

i suspect not.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1420660036' post='2651904']
It is indeed. I'm sure we can sort something between the bands, but it does seem like an odd thing for the promoter to be so preoccupied with.
[/quote]

That promoter... let's just say that a few of us are not exactly in love with him, but Stu deals with him so we're now spared the BS
I just do not communicate directly with him anymore, because he annoys me. I already threatened the guy that runs Fortune Promotions for being an utter idiot and wasting our time, and it nearly led to a punch-up (it'd have been short, I'd have dismembered him... no, not angry, why do you say that? ) so when I announce I'd better not deal with someone, the rest of the band lets me stay out

Our drummer is away playing a wedding that day, and is expected to arrived at the venue after midnight, so there's no way we can help with drums. Normally Neil would have used his.
I'm not sure who the sound guy will be, but the one we had last time there was alright. I thought the sound was good and he was pretty helpful to accommodate our requirements. I'm guessing we must have somebody else this time?
If sound guy insists about the drum issue, let the promoter figure it out, honestly.

I'll be providing the bass rig (Streamliner with the red TKS cabs), which Pete is more than welcome to use. Just not sure I'll bring the wooly beard

It's just Ella+Farhad, NUF and SBK, right?

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1420666873' post='2652050']
kick drums without holes have a very particular sound (think 70's bonham as an example) which is right for some bands but not for other i would imagine this is the motivation for Beer of the Bass's promoter asking for a kick with a hole in if theres gear share involved

but if you're playing your own gig with your own gear then its up to you how you use your gear.

would you for example take out a pedal you were using because the soundman asked you to?

i suspect not.
[/quote]

I've done a fair few gear-share gigs playing bass and guitar, and I've never really given much thought as to whether the gear I bring will suit other peoples tastes or not, just so long as it all works OK and is adequate for the room. I've always assumed that living with the quirks of other people's gear is part of the game at these gigs. I'm sure my 100 watt valve bass rig with just volume, bass and treble controls used to raise a few eyebrows, as has my little single channel guitar combo with no built-in dirt. But I wouldn't think about changing any of it to please anyone but myself!

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1420668020' post='2652074']

That promoter... let's just say that a few of us are not exactly in love with him, but Stu deals with him so we're now spared the BS
I just do not communicate directly with him anymore, because he annoys me. I already threatened the guy that runs Fortune Promotions for being an utter idiot and wasting our time, and it nearly led to a punch-up (it'd have been short, I'd have dismembered him... no, not angry, why do you say that? ) so when I announce I'd better not deal with someone, the rest of the band lets me stay out

Our drummer is away playing a wedding that day, and is expected to arrived at the venue after midnight, so there's no way we can help with drums. Normally Neil would have used his.
I'm not sure who the sound guy will be, but the one we had last time there was alright. I thought the sound was good and he was pretty helpful to accommodate our requirements. I'm guessing we must have somebody else this time?
If sound guy insists about the drum issue, let the promoter figure it out, honestly.

I'll be providing the bass rig (Streamliner with the red TKS cabs), which Pete is more than welcome to use. Just not sure I'll bring the wooly beard

It's just Ella+Farhad, NUF and SBK, right?
[/quote]

My diplomatic solution is to suggest to Hamish that we bring his kit but have a tuning key ready to remove the front skin if they want to mic from the inside. I think Pete is playing with Rhythm Beats Working too, but yeah, he's the only other bassist. It'll be interesting to hear those cabs too.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1420669630' post='2652105']
My diplomatic solution is to suggest to Hamish that we bring his kit but have a tuning key ready to remove the front skin if they want to mic from the inside. I think Pete is playing with Rhythm Beats Working too, but yeah, he's the only other bassist. It'll be interesting to hear those cabs too.
[/quote]

That's probably a good diplomatic solution, but part of me hates being compliant with what I deem unreasonable requests: it may help getting the sound right faster, but if Hamish wants his kit to sound like this, then Mr Soundguy, just use it like that. Or should I bring a Precision instead of a Stingray if the soundguy says so? [1]
Neil will not arrive until after midnight, so we will not soundcheck, that means there's a bit more time for individual band checks.

Ah yes, I forgot about Rhythm Beats... it's all the same people grouped in different ways!

[1] I'll be using a Precision anyway

[chris_b]

What's all this about the drummer changing his gear just to suit other players?

If someone wants to borrow his gear they get [i]his[/i] gear!

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1420672159' post='2652145']
What's all this about the drummer changing his gear just to suit other players?

If someone wants to borrow his gear they get [i]his[/i] gear!
[/quote]

As far as I know the other drummer is fine with it, and the sound guy in this venue has mic'ed this kit before without any major difficulties. It's the promoter who has a bee in his bonnet about it. Promoters are a funny lot...

[Huge Hands]

I have to jump to the defence of the sound guy on this one, although I am doing based on my presumptions rather than knowing the full story.....

I think a lot of you may be mistaking practicality for someone wanting to change the sound.

On a lively stage with guitar amps turned up to 11, vocal wedges turned up full and loads of bass rumble, mic'ing a non ported kick drum from the front skin can be a nightmare in terms of control of booming, feedback and getting any decent level of attack from it. It may sound like a great drum to you in your rehearsal room un-mic'd, but if all the bass drum mic is doing is picking up the singer's wedges and rumble from the bass amp, you're not going to hear much of it through the PA anyway.

In the scenarios mentioned above with multiple bands on and off, the last thing the sound man will want to do in limited soundcheck time is to spend 40mins trying to get a good sound out of a kick drum for 1 band out of 5.

I think that bands do have to understand that a little compromise isn't the end of the world. It also makes the night run much smoother if you are able to share backline and drum shells as it cuts down on time spent having to move everything around on stage. I imagine this is probably why the promoter is pushing for it too - more music and less faffing about on stage.

It is worth noting that the best drummers I've seen on gigs (Clem Catini, Pete Ray Biggin to name but two) were often the first to ask if they can borrow the house band or another band's kit.

Just all my opinions of course....

[BigRedX]

IMO whoever is insistent on being able to have the kick drum mic'd from the inside should then supply their own suitable drum if none of the other bands can.

[mike257]

I've got no objection to micing a hole-less kick if that's what i'm presented with. I've only ever asked a drummer to take the head off if it sounded like arse with it on. If it's a good sounding, well tuned and looked after kit and a good drummer playing it (if only all that happened more often!) then it'll sound mighty anyway. The steadfast insistence that you cut a hole in it regardless is a new one on me.

[PaulWarning]

almost all the multi band bills I've played on there's one kit and the drummers bring their breakables except maybe the headliners, changing a drum kit for every band would be a nightmare. If your drummer insisting on using his own kit I think he's being a bit of an arse, if I've got the wrong end of the stick except my apologies

[Old_Ben]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1420710732' post='2652312']
almost all the multi band bills I've played on there's one kit and the drummers bring their breakables except maybe the headliners, changing a drum kit for every band would be a nightmare. If your drummer insisting on using his own kit I think he's being a bit of an arse, if I've got the wrong end of the stick except my apologies
[/quote]

This is very standard practise.
The only time you won't get to use the headliner's kit is if they are a touring band and you're the local support band, but you'd be expected to bring everything the promoter tells you to anyway or not go on stage!

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1420710732' post='2652312']
almost all the multi band bills I've played on there's one kit and the drummers bring their breakables except maybe the headliners, changing a drum kit for every band would be a nightmare. If your drummer insisting on using his own kit I think he's being a bit of an arse, if I've got the wrong end of the stick except my apologies
[/quote]

There are practical reasons why the other drummer can't bring his kit, so we're supplying the drum kit for the whole night. We're not swapping the kit for one band.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1420713331' post='2652356']
There are practical reasons why the other drummer can't bring his kit, so we're supplying the drum kit for the whole night. We're not swapping the kit for one band.
[/quote]Oh right, I see, well if your drummer's letting everyone else use his kit I think he's entitled to have it set up how he wants but maybe if it was explained to him that his kick drum might not be as loud as it could be because of microphone bleed and feedback issues he might have a rethink.

[TimR]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1420713331' post='2652356']


There are practical reasons why the other drummer can't bring his kit, so we're supplying the drum kit for the whole night. We're not swapping the kit for one band.
[/quote]

That's even worse. Someone is borrowing his kit and then telling him how to set it up?

It's like borrowing someone's cab and complaining it's not punchy enough.

Some people need to grow up.