Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 preamp valve: Advice please! - UPDATE: Tung-Sol impressions

[TRBboy]

Hi guys,

I read somewhere recently that a guy had changed the factory 12AX7 in his Shuttle for a different brand, which gave him a slightly warmer/fatter/girthier sound... The trouble is I can't find it again!

Does anyone have any advice about this, and could maybe give some options of different valves to achieve slightly different tonal qualities? I don't know a huge amount about valves, so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

P.S. For that matter, does anyone know what the stock 12AX7 is in these?

Edited January 15, 2015 by TRBboy

[discreet]

This Watford Valves Report may be of use to you.

[url="http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_2.pdf"]http://www.watfordva...estreport_2.pdf[/url]

I think the conclusion they come to is that New Old Stock valves sound better. They tend to cost more. YMMV.

Edited January 8, 2015 by discreet

[Ghost_Bass]

A friend replaced the stock Ruby 12AX7 on his STL-9.0 for a NOS RCA 12AX7 and says that the sound became indeed more warm. I replaced the Ruby in my previous 9.0 for a EHX 12AX7 and felt that the sound gained more definition. I just recieved a 9.2 on the mail today and once i get the chance i'll try the NOS RCA or maybe a NOS Jen Phillips just to see if there's any diference at all.

[TRBboy]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1420727160' post='2652647']
This Watford Valves Report may be of use to you.

[url="http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_2.pdf"]http://www.watfordva...estreport_2.pdf[/url]

I think the conclusion they come to is that New Old Stock valves sound better. They tend to cost more. YMMV.
[/quote]

Thanks Discreet, very useful info on there! I haven't been on the forum for quite a while until recently, and I'm most surprised (but not unpleasantly) to see you toting a Spector!

[discreet]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1420749022' post='2653069']
Thanks Discreet, very useful info on there! I haven't been on the forum for quite a while until recently, and I'm most surprised (but not unpleasantly) to see you toting a Spector!
[/quote]

You're welcome... yes, I'm a Spector man - for the moment - I made the mistake of playing one, and that was it really.
Apparently it's quite a common occurrence...

[TRBboy]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1420729856' post='2652712']
A friend replaced the stock Ruby 12AX7 on his STL-9.0 for a NOS RCA 12AX7 and says that the sound became indeed more warm. I replaced the Ruby in my previous 9.0 for a EHX 12AX7 and felt that the sound gained more definition. I just recieved a 9.2 on the mail today and once i get the chance i'll try the NOS RCA or maybe a NOS Jen Phillips just to see if there's any diference at all.
[/quote]

Thanks very much Ghost_Bass, again very useful info! My knowledge of valves is very small. I spoke to Hot Rox this afternoon for some advice, who were very helpful. They said that the Ruby valves are very cheap chinese affairs, and come as standard in a lot of amps, but aren't great. They said that pretty well anything would be an improvement, but recommended these two for what I'm hoping to achieve:

[url="http://www.hotroxuk.com/jj-electronics-tube-ecc83s-gold-pin-1093.html"]http://www.hotroxuk.com/jj-electronics-tube-ecc83s-gold-pin-1093.html[/url]

[url="http://www.hotroxuk.com/tad-7025s-12ax7-mullard-style-premium-selected.html"]http://www.hotroxuk.com/tad-7025s-12ax7-mullard-style-premium-selected.html[/url]

They said that the TAD one in particular would be a superb choice, it would add significant 'heft' 'warmth' 'fatness' and other such adjectives, but sounds very open and well defined with a solid bottom end. Sounds good to me! I'm fond of firm bottoms....

[TRBboy]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1420749420' post='2653076']
You're welcome... yes, I'm a Spector man - for the moment - I made the mistake of playing one, and that was it really.
Apparently it's quite a common occurrence...
[/quote]

Same as happened with me and Sandbergs really, took a punt on one and it ruined my ol' faithful Jazz for me, which was sold soon after! And I've since bought 5 more Sandbergs (only have two currently)..... Hope you enjoy it mate.

[TRBboy]

Right, I spoke to Watford Valves this morning, who told me that the TAD valves that Hot Rox recommended are chinese and basically the same as the Ruby's! They recommended that the best option would be to go for a Tung-Sol, or possibly an EHX. Apparently the EHX would be a bit brighter and give a bit more punch, and the Tung-Sol would give a slightly thicker warmer low-mid range, which is more what I'm looking for I guess. So I think I shall order the Tung-Sol shortly, and I'll let you all know how I get on!

[chris_b]

If you look this up on Talkbass, the guy who designed this amp says that changing the valves won't alter the sound much, due to the way it was designed.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1420804488' post='2653582']
If you look this up on Talkbass, the guy who designed this amp says that changing the valves won't alter the sound much, due to the way it was designed.
[/quote]

It won't alter the core sound wich is flat and full of definition, it won't never be able to pump out old-school ampeg-type of sounds but some nicer valves will improve the timbre of the amp giving it more clarity or warmth (depending on the valves chosen).
The diference won't be huge but it can really be heard and felt.

[TRBboy]

Yeah, I'm not expecting it to mystically transform into an SVT (nor would I want it to!), but I hope it will just give the sound a little something extra and warm up/fill out the mids/low mids a little. I realise the difference will be minimal, but just thought it would be interesting to try.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1420803940' post='2653570']
Right, I spoke to Watford Valves this morning, who told me that the TAD valves that Hot Rox recommended are chinese and basically the same as the Ruby's! They recommended that the best option would be to go for a Tung-Sol, or possibly an EHX. Apparently the EHX would be a bit brighter and give a bit more punch, and the Tung-Sol would give a slightly thicker warmer low-mid range, which is more what I'm looking for I guess. So I think I shall order the Tung-Sol shortly, and I'll let you all know how I get on!
[/quote]

Hardly surprising that Watford Valves would diss Hot Rox, as they are direct competitors. Last time I got a valve from WV it arrived in a jiffy bag; last one from HR came in a stiff cardboard tube padded with bubble wrap.

[TRBboy]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1420812924' post='2653765']
Hardly surprising that Watford Valves would diss Hot Rox, as they are direct competitors. Last time I got a valve from WV it arrived in a jiffy bag; last one from HR came in a stiff cardboard tube padded with bubble wrap.
[/quote]

I didn't tell them that I'd spoken to Hot Rox, I said that a friend had suggested that the TAD valve would probably be the best option.

FWIW, the guy at Watford Valves was more helpful than Hot Rox, and is a gigging bass player (with many different amps by the sound of it) and certainly seemed to know what he was talking about in relation to bass amps specifically, whereas Hot Rox gave me the impression that they weren't so sure, despite being very pleasant. The guy at Watford Valves then spent quite some time chatting to me about various bass-related things, which was nice. In the end I ordered from them, because I felt like they had earned my custom.

[discreet]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1420813839' post='2653781']
The guy at Watford Valves then spent quite some time chatting to me about various bass-related things, which was nice. In the end I ordered from them, because I felt like they had earned my custom.
[/quote]

That's likely to be Derek Rocco. I've bought quiet a few valves from WV and always had good advice and service from them.

[Guest monsterthompson]

i bought a used 9.0 and it had a Groove Tubes 12AX7 in it. It would overdrive at high gain settings. the tube went bad and I swapped it out for an EHX 12AX7 I had, and the tone cleaned up a bunch, and won't overdrive much at all at max gain. not sure if it was the tube type or the fact that it was about to go bad which made the GT warmer and able to overdrive.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1420812924' post='2653765']
Hardly surprising that Watford Valves would diss Hot Rox, as they are direct competitors. Last time I got a valve from WV it arrived in a jiffy bag; last one from HR came in a stiff cardboard tube padded with bubble wrap.
[/quote]
[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1420813839' post='2653781']
I didn't tell them that I'd spoken to Hot Rox, I said that a friend had suggested that the TAD valve would probably be the best option.

FWIW, the guy at Watford Valves was more helpful than Hot Rox, and is a gigging bass player (with many different amps by the sound of it) and certainly seemed to know what he was talking about in relation to bass amps specifically, whereas Hot Rox gave me the impression that they weren't so sure, despite being very pleasant. The guy at Watford Valves then spent quite some time chatting to me about various bass-related things, which was nice. In the end I ordered from them, because I felt like they had earned my custom.
[/quote]

OK fair enough then!

[TRBboy]

Well, Tung-Sol arrived and fitted, I'll report back after band practice tomorrow night on whether it's made any difference or not!

[TRBboy]

Well..... I think it has definitely made a tangible difference. The Shuttle is a great amp anyway, but I think this has really kicked it up a notch. It seems to sound just more 'quality', I think it's a bit more open, clear, and defined, but somehow with more warmth and character in the mid range. I think it was most noticeable with the gain turned up and preamp volume turned down a bit (about maybe 3:30 and 10 o'clock respectively), it sounded amazing! more like a proper valve amp. I don't know if this is because of the tube itself, or just because I'd cranked the gain more than usual, but my B and E strings have never sounded so well defined, tight, clear, and growly! Seriously. There was improved bottom end imo, the lows seemed to sound much tidier, tighter, and less 'woolly' (not that you could ever call a Shuttle woolly really!).

Oh and when I cranked the gain higher still, I was rewarded with a really nice, smooth and creamy overdrive.



Of course, it's all subjective and could just be a placebo effect.


The point is in the end, I pissed about with my amp, and I'm VERY happy with the results!

Edited January 15, 2015 by TRBboy

[discreet]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1421321245' post='2659759']
I pissed about with my amp, and I'm VERY happy with the results!
[/quote]

I think that's all you can reasonably expect.

[chris_b]

Good result.