JapanAxe Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) I have suffered this, but I only stood in with the band for one gig. I had worked out and memorised the bass line for 'Who's Crying Now?' by Journey note-for-note. The keytard [see what I did there?] played a very [i]similar[/i] LH line, with the stresses and anticipations in the wrong places. Sounded horrendous, or would have if anyone could have heard my bass over the volume of his keyboard. EDIT: Just remembered a completely different stand-in job where the keytard was complaining about his sound through the PA and monitors on soundcheck. The guy who was doing the PA explained that although the keyboard didn't sound great on its own, he was going for a good-sounding mix, so he had EQ'd the keys so they didn't clash with my bass. The keytard had a hissy fit and walked off-stage, only returning when it was time to play. Edited January 11, 2015 by JapanAxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1421018285' post='2656362'] Either I'm incredibly lucky or you've only ever encountered crap kbdists. All the ivorytinklers i've ever played with have been great. My current bandmate got heavy with his left one time, I mentioned it, he apologised profusely and has never done it since. If the OP's bandmate was a team player, he would do the same without getting precious about it. [/quote] You're incredibly lucky. There are far fewer team players about than you'd think. I reckon team-playing comes with the territory if you're a bass player. We tend to play for the song as a matter of course. I wish everyone did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenadilla Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yes, do record a rehearsal/gig to capture the two-bass vibe. I used to be bothered about a gtr who would play some of the basslines with me. Then I learned on some Beatles songs Paul WANTED some of his parts doubled! You could embrace the bass. You could play some stuff up an octave for a 8string effect. Before you quit, try to get some allies in the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I smell. I run like a girl. I wear gay clothes. But demn you, Mark! What a way to talk about fellow human beings of good will! Those gay clothes are [b]not weird[/b], fer cryin' out loud! I agree that us keyboardists are initially not used or trained to think like team players, or our place in a mix, but what's wrong with people who, upon starting in a band, don't quickly reorientate and change their playing? Also, what's wrong with bands where all these types of issues aren't talked through and solved routinely? The stories I read on BC are mindblowing, and I can't escape the impression people just dive into songs headlessly, wthout caring about the songs even. Edited January 12, 2015 by BassTractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I've had this with a couple of keyboard players over the years. As someone has already alluded to, one solution (if you can't talk it through) is to roll off the bottom end on the mix or their little amp (however they're being heard). This allows them to still play in their normal way without making the whole mix really muddy. Some keyboard players don't mind that, with others you may need to be a bit more underhand and sneaky about it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyDog Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1421018786' post='2656370'] You're incredibly lucky. There are far fewer team players about than you'd think. I reckon team-playing comes with the territory if you're a bass player. We tend to play for the song as a matter of course. I wish everyone did. [/quote] Out of interest, how many keyboard players have you played with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't think this is exclusively a keys problem, many gtr players will do the same with a bass heavy sound which they love but ruins it for the rest. Less of a problem if only bass and gtr but I still hear it too often and real woe can be 2 gtrs..!! The first thing a bass should do...is make sure he sits well in the mix with the drums. My sound comes over the top of the drums as I want everything to be heard, so that means the keys and gtr must be very careful with their sounds in context. One of the warning signs is a big pedal board of course, and most keys are also one great big pedal board. So it all really starts from the drums up..so well tuned drums, then bass, keys and then gtr on top.. but too many gtrs think they ARE the band and they seem to thinking that playing everywhere is driving the band. If you leave it to the gtr to do that, or need that, then the band is all wrong IMO. The bass and drums drive and underpin the band.. the gtr and keys are very very nice dressing on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1421055045' post='2656503'] Out of interest, how many keyboard players have you played with? [/quote] I'd guess at around nine or ten... possibly plus a few I've forgotten about over the years. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1421058355' post='2656546'] I don't think this is exclusively a keys problem, many gtr players will do the same with a bass heavy sound which they love but ruins it for the rest. Less of a problem if only bass and gtr but I still hear it too often and real woe can be 2 gtrs..!! [/quote] This too - I've had guitarists encroach on my 'frequency territory' but IME they are a lot cooler about it when you explain to them what is happening and more likely to adjust their EQ to fix the problem. They just don't realise that a nice guitar sound in isolation is likely to have too much bottom end and/or low mids in it. A great 'in-band' live guitar sound will likely be quite thin and scratchy on its own - but it's not the guitar's job to provide heft. And of course the problem is compounded with two guitars, but that's another subject that needs another thread... Edited January 12, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd say the root of this is that keys, and guitars to an extent, are solo instruments and when people learn keys they learn to play an entire song, not just a part in it. Playing in the context of a band is something completely different and I think that is the rare skill. I blame Jools Holland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1421058355' post='2656546'] I don't think this is exclusively a keys problem, many gtr players will do the same with a bass heavy sound which they love but ruins it for the rest. Less of a problem if only bass and gtr but I still hear it too often and real woe can be 2 gtrs..!! [/quote] Yes 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Have you discussed this issue with the rest of the band? Likely the keyboardist has no idea they are causing a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyDog Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1421055045' post='2656503'] Out of interest, how many keyboard players have you played with? [/quote][quote name='discreet' timestamp='1421061940' post='2656611'] I'd guess at around nine or ten... possibly plus a few I've forgotten about over the years. [/quote] And on that basis, you're happy to label [i]all[/i] piano-based kbdists as 'NOT team players'? Okay then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1421064548' post='2656659'] And on that basis, you're happy to label [i]all[/i] piano-based kbdists as 'NOT team players'? Okay then. [/quote] Colour me puzzled, Rich. Keyboardists are notorious for exactly this, and especially with regard to the left-hand thing. My experience is far less extensive than Mark's, and I've only played regularly with four KB players, but I have a 100% record of bloody irritating musicians (no matter how good they are technically) who will not play for the band or the song, but think that everything should revolve around them. On that basis, I'm certainly prepared to label a few of 'em ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1421064548' post='2656659'] And on that basis, you're happy to label [i]all[/i] piano-based kbdists as 'NOT team players'? Okay then. [/quote] Yes! I can only go by my own experience. And as has been said, keyboards are a full-range instrument that can carry an entire song without accompaniment, so keys players are used to 'taking up all the room' if you want to put it that way. The guitar too, but less so. I've only met one keys player who played for the song and he wasn't a trained pianist - and did what he did with his right hand only (fnarr). Edited January 12, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Another bassist gave me some advice years ago - he said 'if you've got a keyboard player, you don't need me'! Having played sometime back with keys, I fully admit I agree with him, and I wouldn't join a band with such an instrument. Maybe it's fine in 'bigger' bands with loads of space and a full-time sound guy - but unless you have that, I'd run a mile! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not really been a problem with me, Although in a pub covers with no keys now, my real love would be to (retry) be in a prog band, and a prog band without keys isn't really working. I would say a keyboard player with a heavy left hand probably isn't that good, as the left hand should be doing something far different to what the bass is doing, and much more like the right hand is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1421069291' post='2656736'] Not really been a problem with me, Although in a pub covers with no keys now, my real love would be to (retry) be in a prog band, and a prog band without keys isn't really working. I would say a keyboard player with a heavy left hand probably isn't that good, as the left hand should be doing something far different to what the bass is doing, and much more like the right hand is doing. [/quote] In a prog band, his left hand should be operating another synthesizer, or maybe pushing his cape out of the way ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1421076644' post='2656861'] In a prog band, his left hand should be operating another synthesizer, or maybe pushing his cape out of the way ... [/quote] Yes, or steadying his wizard's hat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Or spooning in the curry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1421077728' post='2656877'] Yes, or steadying his wizard's hat... [/quote] Nah! You want The Hobbit thread, mate. Go daaaaahn to that Off Topic and it's just there on yer left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 all keyboard players should be like Def Leopards drummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1421076644' post='2656861'] In a prog band, his left hand should be operating another synthesizer, or maybe pushing his cape out of the way ... [/quote] Or fiddling with the drawbars and flicking the Leslie switch every now and then! I love hearing proper organ in a band... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) [quote name='KevB' timestamp='1421078047' post='2656881'] Or spooning in the curry... [/quote] Hang on chap, don't want any of that on stage.. Oh.. sorry, I see what you mean!.. Edited January 12, 2015 by Woodinblack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1421077728' post='2656877'] Yes, or steadying his wizard's hat... [/quote] [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1421078051' post='2656882'] Nah! You want The Hobbit thread, mate. Go daaaaahn to that Off Topic and it's just there on yer left. [/quote] Edited January 12, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd walk out if I saw someone wear a hat like that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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