Learning Wanted

[wishface]

Recently I've been on a quest to improve. Nothing new there.

However I've been watching some of Jeff Berlin's Player's School of Music clips where he tosses out the odd quick lesson. I know he's a controversial figure in terms of musical education and that he favours, FWIW, jazz as the best way to learn music. I'm not jazz's biggest fan, but I can see where he's coming from.

What I would like is to learn what he's talking about. What he seems to be saying is that a bass player, or indeed any musician, should learn music first and foremost and that everything else comes after (within reason). Now as someone that's been playing for a while now, I have some technical facility (I can play notes and have a reasonable grasp of the neck), but I ought to learn the theory so that I know what I'm playing, why, and where I can go.

This is something that, while I know some scales and chords, I don't have. I can string a chord sequence together, like most players, but I need to learn that something that makes it all clear. What can you recommend for this? I don't know any teachers, I don't live in America so paying JB's school for lessons is not on the table

Otherwise I'm starting to think i've wasted 20 odd years playing. For example when i started playing there was mention of this up and coming player called Victor in Bass Player magazine, now in the time i've been flailing around learning Geezer Butler licks or Geddy Lee parts (great players both), he's climbed to the top of the mountain! Or that young girl that plays with Jeff Beck who's half my age (she looks about 12 ffs!) who seems to have that kind of harmonic understanding - or at least must have to ge to play with people like Jeff!

[Bilbo]

How long is a piece of string? You need to learn MUSIC nor bass guitar, that is all. I was thinking about this the other day when I saw a book called Scales for Bass Guitar (or something to that effect). Whatever scales exist, exist for every instrument not just one

You may not live near a college that offers bass guitar studies but I guarantee you will live near a pianist who can point you in the right direction. Where are you based? That may help people on here guide you. Obviously you need to apply your learning to bass but the let the music guide you. As for Tal, she ios a cool player but not really advanced in any sense. I play regularly with musicians that leave me open-mouthed with how good they are and I ma gradually being dragged along in their slipstream. It's the music that does it, not the instrument. Find some musicians that take you places you may not otherwise go. Talk to pianists, guitarists, sax players etc NOT bass guitarists. They are mostly full of s***

PS I haven't played with Tal, obviously, but I have done a gig with Jason Rebello, his keyboard player. A great experience and I learned a lot.

[Coilte]

First, dont be too hard on yourself. No matter how good you are, there will always be someone better. Comparing yourself to the likes of Victor Wotton is a recipe for frustration and disillusionment......for [i]most[/i] people. [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]IMO the normal advice of "[/size][i]get a teacher"[/i][size=4] applies here. If you have trouble finding a good one in your area, you could consider lessons via [/size]Skype[size=4]. [/size]

[size=4]When you say you "know" scales...do you..?[/size]


[size=4]1) Know how chords are derived from scales ?[/size]

[size=4]2) Know how to harmonize the major scale ?.. i.e. do you know all the diatonic chords and why some are Maj and some minor ?[/size]

[size=4]3) Know about intervals ?[/size]

[size=4]​If the answer is NO to the above, then in the [/size]absence[size=4] of a teacher, this is a good place to start IMO.[/size]

[size=4]A great site that explains theory in very easy to understand way is www.studybass.com[/size]

[wishface]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1421088282' post='2657038']
How long is a piece of string? You need to learn MUSIC nor bass guitar, that is all. I was thinking about this the other day when I saw a book called Scales for Bass Guitar (or something to that effect). Whatever scales exist, exist for every instrument not just one

You may not live near a college that offers bass guitar studies but I guarantee you will live near a pianist who can point you in the right direction. Where are you based? That may help people on here guide you. Obviously you need to apply your learning to bass but the let the music guide you. As for Tal, she ios a cool player but not really advanced in any sense. I play regularly with musicians that leave me open-mouthed with how good they are and I ma gradually being dragged along in their slipstream. It's the music that does it, not the instrument. Find some musicians that take you places you may not otherwise go. Talk to pianists, guitarists, sax players etc NOT bass guitarists. They are mostly full of s***

PS I haven't played with Tal, obviously, but I have done a gig with Jason Rebello, his keyboard player. A great experience and I learned a lot.
[/quote]I don't really know any musicians, been a long time since I was in a band.

Yes I want to learn music/theory.

I don't know how advanced Tal is, but she seems to have gone from being a 16yo aussie kid to playing with some of the world's most renowned musicians in a heartbeat! That doesn't happen for everyone, not without some serious skills. I've no idea whether she reads music or whatever. That said, I don't think she has a particularly unique voice on the bass, but then my favourite musicians aren't readers or theory experts (afaik) and consequently i've followed intheir footsteps more or less.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1421088516' post='2657047']
First, dont be too hard on yourself. No matter how good you are, there will always be someone better. Comparing yourself to the likes of Victor Wotton is a recipe for frustration and disillusionment......for [i]most[/i] people.

[size=4]IMO the normal advice of "[/size][i]get a teacher"[/i][size=4] applies here. If you have trouble finding a good one in your area, you could consider lessons via [/size]Skype[size=4]. [/size]

[size=4]When you say you "know" scales...do you..?[/size]


[size=4]1) Know how chords are derived from scales ?[/size]

[size=4]2) Know how to harmonize the major scale ?.. i.e. do you know all the diatonic chords and why some are Maj and some minor ?[/size]

[size=4]3) Know about intervals ?[/size]

[size=4]​If the answer is NO to the above, then in the [/size]absence[size=4] of a teacher, this is a good place to start IMO.[/size]

[size=4]A great site that explains theory in very easy to understand way is www.studybass.com[/size]
[/quote]

I'm not a huge fan of his music, but Victor Wooten seems to be the template for bass excellence, plus he seems like a nice guy which is always a pain in the arse!

So in a sense it does bug me because part of me would like to be that good. That may be ego, though I wouldn't play the music he plays. At least I don't think I would.

But this isn't so much about technique as it is about knowing music.

I can't afford lessons right now, so I need a different study method. A book or something, preferrably one that's not too esoteric. I have a few resources of my own but i've always found theory, proper theory (not just knowing patterns of notes - scales etc), to be difficult to comprehend.

In answer to your questions:

1. I think so. the first third and fifth of the scale are the major chord, and in a similar pattern chords are built off each note inthe scale (so Dm is built off the second of the C scale, or the first of the D minor scale). Then you get all the weird scales with the more intense chords like augmented and diminished stuff. But I couldn't tell you the purpose of them or what you are meant to do with them, if that makes any sense, other than stick them togethter in an arbitrary way and...there's your song.

2. Other than 'major sounds happy' and 'minor sounds sad' (which is all relative) not really. I could harmonise the scale, if i'm understanding you correctly, but only as an intellectual exercise, which is the problem.

3. I think so.

But again this is all intellectual stuff. I have no way of knowing if my understanding of even that is correct. When I look at a bass line like Teen Town, which i've been trying to teach myself (i'm not really a fan of his stuff with Weather Report or them at all, but I'm interested in it as a study piece) and the melodies and lines are largely chromatic. It's not at all what i'm used to, copping Rush licks for instance.

[Coilte]

I would not consider knowing some basic theory as being intellectual. There is nothing intellectual about being able to harmonize the major scale. It is simply something you need to know in order to [b]really[/b] know the scale. It is like learning the alphabet and knowing how to use it in order to spell words. I remember when I had my first bass lesson which included some very basic theory. I though to myself..."how am I going to get my head around this stuff...?" The answer is to start at ground zero (otherwise you have to back track later on because you missed something along the way). Take it slowly and in [u]tiny bite size chunks.[/u][size=4] Dont move on until you are happy that you have the current lesson under your belt.[/size][size=4]The reason I linked "Studybass" is because it starts very basic and builds gradually from there. Another tutorial I can recommend is the "Bass Method" book. It comes in three volumes. Each has it's own CD. It is worth getting all three in one spiral bound edition like in this link :[/size]

[size=4]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hal-Leonard-Bass-Method-Complete/dp/0793563836[/size]

[size=4]I am by no means an expert on theory, but I'd like to think that I have the basics down. Feel free to P.M. me if you have any more questions. I wont have all the answers, but am happy to help if I can.[/size]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1421099900' post='2657226']...[size=4]Another tutorial I can recommend is the "Bass Method" book. It comes in three volumes. Each has it's own CD. It is worth getting all three in one spiral bound edition like in this link :[/size]

[size=4][url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hal-Leonard-Bass-Method-Complete/dp/0793563836"]http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0793563836[/url]...[/size]
[/quote]

+1 (or more...) for this ^^. An excellent, progressive, easily assimilated method. I've lots of books and stuff; this is one of the best for wetting one's toes in the music theory ocean. Worth every penny (or pence, or cent, or florin or whatever...).

[wishface]

What I mean by intellectual, is the position of having some theory (like knowing scales), but not how to use it. You need to learn how to use that information and what it means otherwise it's just knowledge without wisdom.

[Coilte]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421141505' post='2657464']
You need to learn how to use that information and what it means otherwise it's just knowledge without wisdom.
[/quote]

You do indeed need to learn how to use the information....so....get practicing using the "Bass Method" book(s) !! [size=4] The book has practical musical play along tracks for most exercises, utilizing the information gleaned from a particular exercise.[/size]


[size=4]I still maintain that a teacher is the best way to go. Until you get one, perhaps the next best thing is to work on the book and if you come across something you dont understand, ask here on BC. I'm sure that people would be happy to help you out.[/size]

[size=4]Best of luck with it. [/size]

Edited January 13, 2015 by Coilte

[wishface]

Are the books complete? How deep do they go? Is it worth getting something more complete if not? There are a LOT of books out there to choose from, some good some not so good.

I read, quite by accident, that a flat IIm7 chord can substitute for a V 7 chord - something like that. How does that work? Or, more importantly, why?

[DaveFry]

A flat II 7 ( not minor 7 ) is a common substitute for a V 7 because ...

the important chord notes , the thirds and sevenths , are the same .

Example ;
Say we are in A major . The V7 chord is an E7 .
The important notes that define it as a dominant 7 chord are the third ( G sharp ) and the the seventh ( D ) .
The flat II 7 chord in the key of A major is a Bflat 7 .
The important notes that define the sound of a dom. 7 , the third and the flat 7 are D and A flat for a Bflat 7 chord .
( A flat and G sharp are the same notes ) So both chords contain the same notes , the notes that define their dominant seven sound , just that the third of one is the seventh of the other and vice versa .

Furthermore , if the chords player ( keys or gtr ) simplifies the dominant 7 chords to just two notes , the third and the seventh , then the lucky bass player is free to choose the root at will and can play a V7 or a flat II 7 to suit his whims or follow the soloist or whatever . Greater freedom for the bassplayer ( hooray ! ) if you are lucky enough to have a pianist with a less-is-more left hand that is comfortable with leaving the roots out and just playing the two important notes of a chord ( third and seventh ) .

HTH

[Dad3353]

[size=4][quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421145664' post='2657540']
Are the books complete? How deep do they go? Is it worth getting something more complete if not? There are a LOT of books out there to choose from, some good some not so good.

I read, quite by accident, that a flat IIm7 chord can substitute for a V 7 chord - something like that. How does that work? Or, more importantly, why?
[/quote]

You want more..? We've got more...

Have a go at this (there are other sources...), which will explain all, and more. Well written, progressive; almost a 'bible'...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421148608&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Jazz+Theory+Book"]The Jazz Theory Book ...[/url][/size]

[attachment=180808:Jazz_Theo_Book.jpg]

[size=4]Once you've mastered all there is in there, you'll be doing well.
Don't be put off by the 'jazz' in the title, it's solid musical information which applies to much modern music. For purely 'classical', or orchestral, music, there are other tomes.[/size]

Edited January 13, 2015 by Dad3353

[wishface]

I understand the theory, but where do ideas like this come from. Those are two different sounding chords even with the tritone. Is this a blues thing?

[wishface]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1421148939' post='2657579']


[size=4]You want more..? We've got more...

Have a go at this (there are other sources...), which will explain all, and more. Well written, progressive; almost a 'bible'...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421148608&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Jazz+Theory+Book"]The Jazz Theory Book ...[/url][/size]

[attachment=180808:Jazz_Theo_Book.jpg]

[size=4]Once you've mastered all there is in there, you'll be doing well.
Don't be put off by the 'jazz' in the title, it's solid musical information which applies to much modern music. For purely 'classical', or orchestral, music, there are other tomes.[/size]
[/quote]

Surely music theory is music theory? What makes that the JAZZ theory book?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421150868' post='2657619']
Surely music theory is music theory? What makes that the JAZZ theory book?
[/quote]

Surely, but not so, I'm afraid. The fundamentals of 'classical' music, from a harmonic point of view, can differ from modern music. Writing for a symphony orchestra has different notions from those found in pop, rock, jazz and more. Why the jazz theory book..? Well, that's what the fellow called it, as his focus was American music from New Orleans, through bebop et al. The musical concepts, though, are found throughout modern pop, rock and more, not simply jazz. Why such-and-such a chord may be exchanged for another, how chords are constructed, harmonic exchange, voice leading... We find all of this in more than simply jazz. As far as I know, there's not an equivalent work on rock or pop music, specifically, nor even a need for a separate tome (but I don't know everything; maybe one exists..?). Never mind the title; the contents transcend it, and that's what matters most... [size=4] [/size]

[Coilte]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421145664' post='2657540']
I read, quite by accident, that a flat IIm7 chord can substitute for a V 7 chord - something like that. How does that work? Or, more importantly, why?
[/quote]

You seem to be missing the point I made earlier about starting from [b]ground zero.[/b] Taking in snippets of information here and there is not going to help if you have not put in the ground work. It just causes frustration and further confusion. There is a lot of more basic stuff to get under your belt before you work on chord substitution. As you seem not to be aware of exactly how chords are derived from scales and how to harmonize a major scale, learning about chord substitution at this stage is futile IMO. This is what I meant earlier about having lessons where one builds on what went before.

That "Bass Method" book is one of the best out there (IMO of course [size=4] ) for learning basic theory.....regardless of what genre you are interested in. It does not cost that much to buy, so why not give it a try ?[/size]

[size=4]​In the [/size]absence[size=4] of a teacher, you could do a lot worse.[/size]

Edited January 13, 2015 by Coilte

[Dad3353]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421150181' post='2657606']
I understand the theory, but where do ideas like this come from. Those are two different sounding chords even with the tritone. Is this a blues thing?
[/quote]

A bit of a strange question, if I may be so bold (although legitimate, of course...). The answer (or, at least, mine...) is that theory comes [i]after [/i]music, not music from theory. Firstly, someone played those chords and liked the way it sounded, in the context of which it was played. Afterwards, an explanation as to [i]why [/i]it fits was found (the common notes, as explained above...). Theory doesn't explain everything, either. There are many examples of modern music that don't fit with either traditional nor modern theory ('Nirvana' spring to mind; there's many others...). The old adage remains true; there are no rules, but it's a good idea to know what the guidelines are before breaking out from them.
I wouldn't recommend getting hung up on naming stuff, such as 'blues' or 'bebop', or 'swing', either, as for every example of such a style, there'll be dozens of exceptions and evolutions. For musical historians, I suppose, it's good to know where it all comes from (and there's plenty of worms in cans just waiting to be opened there, too...), but for the basics of modern music theory, one can just jump in and enjoy.
As with many domains, I have a handy encouraging little catch-phrase for those willing to embark on journeys of the sort...
"It's the first 40 years that are the worst, after which things start to get (slightly...) better."
Hope this helps.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Dad3353

[DaveFry]

Sure it came from the blues . Jazz grew out of the blues in New Orleans .

Take a common blues turnaround from bars 11 and 12 of a 12bar in say , C major ;
Bar 11 might be :-
C , C7 with E in the bass , F , Fsharp diminished ,
Then Bar 12 :-
G7 , Aflat7, G7, G7
In bar 12 the Aflat 7 is a tritone substitute of D7

An ending might go C Dflat7 C . Tritone substitute
______________________

Classical harmony has different rules eg never double the third , double the roots and fifths etc
Jazz harmony rules include things like add the seventh ( it defines the sound and e.g. states the maj.7 colour or dom.7 colour ),
leave the fifth out unless it is an altered fifth ,( a perfect fifth is already there in the overtones of a root esp. with an upright bass )
don't double the root ,
double the 3rds and 7ths freely ,
add 9ths and further extensions for extra colour,.....
All the above evolved to give greater improvisational freedom for everyone including the bassperson ( hooray ).

[wishface]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1421151815' post='2657642'] You seem to be missing the point I made earlier about starting from [b]ground zero.[/b] Taking in snippets of information here and there is not going to help if you have not put in the ground work. It just causes frustration and further confusion. There is a lot of more basic stuff to get under your belt before you work on chord substitution. As you seem not to be aware of exactly how chords are derived from scales and how to harmonize a major scale, learning about chord substitution at this stage is futile IMO. This is what I meant earlier about having lessons where one builds on what went before. That "Bass Method" book is one of the best out there (IMO of course [size=4] ) for learning basic theory.....regardless of what genre you are interested in. It does not cost that much to buy, so why not give it a try ?[/size] [size=4]​In the [/size]absence[size=4] of a teacher, you could do a lot worse.[/size] [/quote]I may give it a try, but right now i'm not in the music shops

I only asked about the II/V thing because it piqued my curiosity when I heard it. I don't know what stuff I would need to understand before grasping that (i understand the theory behind it, i'm just curious why it's a thing - after all you can use any chord in any sequence, in theory ), for all i know I may know it! I don't have an objective methodology to call on to test because i've never studied formally.

So what does the Jazz book cover, if anything, that the Hal Leonard book doesn't?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421159023' post='2657785']...
So what does the Jazz book cover, if anything, that the Hal Leonard book doesn't?
[/quote]

Scales and chords take us up to page 100. The whole book has over 500 pages. It's not a bass tutor book, unlike the Hal Leonard one. If there's a doubt in your mind, get the Hal Leonard. If any questions subsist, despite its depth, the answers are probably in the Levine tome.

[Coilte]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421159023' post='2657785']
So what does the Jazz book cover, if anything, that the Hal Leonard book doesn't?
[/quote]

The only thing I know about the Jazz book is that it is regarded as [i]the [/i][size=4]book on jazz theory. The "Bass Method" book is also widely regarded as one of the best all round tutorials.[/size]

[size=4]My honest opinion, from what you stated in your initial post would be to start with the Bass Method book and when you have digested that, then delve into the Jazz book. [/size][size=4]At the risk of sounding like a broken record.....you would get the ultimate benefit from either book by working through them [u]with a good teacher.[/u][/size]

Best of luck in the learning journey.....regardless of which book you choose. [size=4] [/size]

[Bilbo]

Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book is the only one you need if all you are looking for is music theory. If you get that (£27 on Amazon?), you will have pretty much all of the information you will ever need. The problem is the application of that information. Without some direction from others, you may struggle to apply some of the information you gather.

The reason it is called Jazz Theory is because most pop/funk etc music is based on significant degrees of repetition and a book of 'pop' theory would be very short A lot of the greatest Pop artist are actually backed up by monster Jazz players/composers/arrangers (e.g. Michael Jackson/Quincy Jones, Earth, Wind and Fire was started by ex-Miles Davis Jazzers. Steely Dan records are chock full of Jazzers, as are/were Sting, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Chaka Khan, Ricki Lee Jones, James Taylor etc etc. The list is endless). The notes are the same; it is the application of theories that defines.

Classical theory is not that different in terms of the 'maths' (8-note scales) but the application is VERY different and orchestration and instrumentation are much more important.

[wishface]

THanks.

I'm sure a teacher would be ideal, but as I say I can't afford one. I don't really know where i would find a [i]good [/i]one. Everyone that plays an instrument thinks they can teach. Whether they can or not is another matter.

[DaveFry]

Find some local jazzers , hang out and ask there . If you're sincere with them , they'll help .
Maybe listen first and approach someone whose playing ( any instrument ) you like .

[Dad3353]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1421177332' post='2658133']
THanks.

I'm sure a teacher would be ideal, but as I say I can't afford one. I don't really know where i would find a [i]good [/i]one. Everyone that plays an instrument thinks they can teach. Whether they can or not is another matter.
[/quote]

Maybe you could reveal your location, either in this topic or in your Profile..? Someone may be closer to you than you think..? Just a thought;

[wishface]

[quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1421180332' post='2658198']
Find some local jazzers , hang out and ask there . If you're sincere with them , they'll help .
Maybe listen first and approach someone whose playing ( any instrument ) you like .
[/quote]

I think I need to be playing with actual people. Not necessarily jazz 'cats', I'm not overly keen on learning Jazz per se, more learning theory. Although being able to play badass fast walking lines is always impressive

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of opportunities locally (in the sticks) and I don't have transport.