Musky Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Reading thriugh this I'm getting the impression that the OP's difficulties are related to not knowing the songs properly, although there may be underlying timing problems as well. If you don't know the songs inside out you're going to have trouble changing chords on time. Following the vocals is a guaranteed way to miss the changes as they can play fast and loose with the timing - and as a bass player you can't. As a result you're going to be listening for cues, which will play havoc with hitting the changes. There's been a recent thread on remembering songs, but the gist of it is that you need to listen to them repeatedly until you know them off pat. Until you do that you'll never make the changes on time even with a metronome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Do you read music 2strings? Part of your problem may be assuming that chords change on a beat, whereas they (or at least the bass line) change just before - known as anticipation. Have a look at the piano music for the song, and see whether the lowest note is 'tied' to a short earlier note where there is a chord change. I can't add a pic at the moment (bloomin' iPad) but will try to do so later. EDIT: More thoughts! Some people have a confidence problem that stops them playing on the beat - they sort of wait for everyone else to play the beat, then join in. Is this you? (It used to be me!). Also please tell me you do read music - if not, it is unreasonable to expect you to lead a worship music group, whatever your spiritual credentials! EDIT 2: Sorry just re-read OP and realised you're not the worship leader! Still it would help you to be able to read rhythms if nothing else. Edited January 13, 2015 by JapanAxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1421153720' post='2657686'] If you don't know the songs inside out you're going to have trouble changing chords on time... ...you need to listen to them repeatedly until you know them off pat. Until you do that you'll never make the changes on time even with a metronome. [/quote] +1 - This, very much so. I always learn material to the point where I could play it in my sleep, upside down, up a tree. I've said it before, but it's worth repeating: amateurs rehearse until they get it right, but professionals rehearse until they can't get it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stringsmcginty Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1421155664' post='2657706'] Do you read music 2strings? Part of your problem may be assuming that chords change on a beat, whereas they (or at least the bass line) change just before - known as anticipation. EDIT: More thoughts! Some people have a confidence problem that stops them playing on the beat - they sort of wait for everyone else to play the beat, then join in. Is this you? [/quote] There was a point at which I could play 'all the small things' reading the music and 3 strings but playing chords for the last 8 years and not playing for a couple of years until recently it's chords only all round for guitar, keys and bass. We listen to the track and make notes Before attempting to play and it seems to work for everyone else (the drummer was 12 when these guys took on the task, he's left for uni now) I do have a bit of a hesitancy problem, or I can hear the timing clearly but not confident enough to trust it. I think, taking advice on board I need to know my way arround my bass again, playing on only the E and A strings can only be holding me back when going from D to F# and do the timing exercises prescribed earlier but also play some stuff to music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stringsmcginty Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1421155664' post='2657706'] Do you read music 2strings? Part of your problem may be assuming that chords change on a beat, whereas they (or at least the bass line) change just before - known as anticipation. EDIT: More thoughts! Some people have a confidence problem that stops them playing on the beat - they sort of wait for everyone else to play the beat, then join in. Is this you? [/quote] There was a point at which I could play 'all the small things' reading the music and 3 strings but playing chords for the last 8 years and not playing for a couple of years until recently it's chords only all round for guitar, keys and bass. We listen to the track and make notes Before attempting to play and it seems to work for everyone else (the drummer was 12 when these guys took on the task, he's left for uni now) I do have a bit of a hesitancy problem, or I can hear the timing clearly but not confident enough to trust it. I think, taking advice on board I need to know my way arround my bass again, playing on only the E and A strings can only be holding me back when going from D to F# and do the timing exercises prescribed earlier but also play some stuff to music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You're not the first to see this problem, you won't be the last either, lots of people have solved it too, so you're actually in a pretty good place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 My first thought when I read the OP was that the bandleader/MD needs to sort himself out. Tell him to prepare proper charts and not to rely on the musicians knowing everything in advance. A lyric sheet with chords over the words is arguably the most useless piece of crap you can give someone. I have a couple of people I work with who do that and it almost always ends in a car crash. It doesn't tell you anything. Nevertheless, an intimate knowledge of the idiosyncracies of your chosen genre is really important. Most Jazz tunes do certain things at certain points. Most funk songs do other things at other points etc etc. I am sure that it is the same with gospel stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stringsmcginty Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 [quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1421162944' post='2657854'] You're not the first to see this problem, you won't be the last either, lots of people have solved it too, so you're actually in a pretty good place [/quote] Thanks, I was pondering giving up as I love playing with the band and I enjoy playing in worship - it's what I learnt bass for. [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1421163768' post='2657870'] My first thought when I read the OP was that the bandleader/MD needs to sort himself out. Tell him to prepare proper charts and not to rely on the musicians knowing everything in advance. A lyric sheet with chords over the words is arguably the most useless piece of crap you can give someone. I have a couple of people I work with who do that and it almost always ends in a car crash. It doesn't tell you anything. Nevertheless, an intimate knowledge of the idiosyncracies of your chosen genre is really important. Most Jazz tunes do certain things at certain points. Most funk songs do other things at other points etc etc. I am sure that it is the same with gospel stuff. [/quote] we do spend a lot of time with the chord sheet listening to the song a few times, making notes, working out what our parts are and how we'll play the song - the stompy example I posted earlier is not so folksy when we play it. It's quite normal in churches to work in this way, the thoughts being we're there to provide backing and atmosphere, not a performance. Something with a bit more direction on the sheet for me may be useful however so it's worth me trying to get my head around sheet music and track down a copy (we're given the track and chord sheet in advance for new songs so we're familiar with them before practice nights) we don't expect to practice on the monday eve and play it on the sunday, it takes a few weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 'Practise' is supposed to be done at home, in the 'woodshed' (technical term for 'wherever you can go to not be disturbed whilst working on stuff'... [size=4] ).[/size] 'Rehearsal' is when everybody comes together to run through what they've already got down 'pat' at home, to iron out the details. That's what's supposed to happen. No, it doesn't always work that way, but 'practising' during rehearsal is not a Good Idea, in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1421163768' post='2657870'] A lyric sheet with chords over the words is arguably the most useless piece of crap you can give someone. [/quote] No - that'll be a subscription to Netflix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1421175644' post='2658099'] 'Rehearsal' is when everybody comes together to run through what they've already got down 'pat' at home, to iron out the details. That's what's supposed to happen. No, it doesn't always work that way, but 'practising' during rehearsal is not a Good Idea, in general. [/quote] +1 - Another pet peeve and guaranteed to bring my urine up to 100 degrees Celsius. It's usually the guitarist. 'I didn't really have time to learn this one properly, I'll just wing it - it'll be OK!' ...NO IT WON'T - because I'm about to stick your guitar up your Gruffalo, you twunt! Edited January 13, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadofsix Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 How good is your drummer? Is his or her meter solid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Unless I have missed this important part of the OP thread, how can you guys give opinions and suggestions if we don't know how old the OP is? If he/she is 12, I would have completely different ideas from what I would give a 40 year old. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1421214977' post='2658463'] Unless I have missed this important part of the OP thread, how can you guys give opinions and suggestions if we don't know how old the OP is? If he/she is 12, I would have completely different ideas from what I would give a 40 year old. Blue [/quote] Going by a previous post, at least 21. It's normal practice in church for everyone to have lyric sheets with the chords written with them. Just make sure that the chords are written in time with the lyrics. Make your own notes on the sheets for any changes. Maybe practice along to songs like "Give us clean hands" (Kutliss) where the bassline is doing a steady rhythm to improve your timing. A good place to learn songs is on YouTube. Hillsongs have isolated bass videos on YT too. I'd forgotten about Rend Collective. But if you like them, have a listen to All Sons & Daughters and also Gungor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassfunk Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 If you've got an android or ios device you could download ireal pro. It's an app that let's you put chord progressions in and then plays them back to you. It's primarily used by jazz guys but on the song forums there's all kinds of stuff. You can also see where the chords change on the player so this might help you? I practice with this all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1421155664' post='2657706'] Do you read music 2strings? Part of your problem may be assuming that chords change on a beat, whereas they (or at least the bass line) change just before - known as anticipation. Have a look at the piano music for the song, and see whether the lowest note is 'tied' to a short earlier note where there is a chord change. I can't add a pic at the moment (bloomin' iPad) but will try to do so later. EDIT: More thoughts! Some people have a confidence problem that stops them playing on the beat - they sort of wait for everyone else to play the beat, then join in. Is this you? (It used to be me!). Also please tell me you do read music - if not, it is unreasonable to expect you to lead a worship music group, whatever your spiritual credentials! EDIT 2: Sorry just re-read OP and realised you're not the worship leader! Still it would help you to be able to read rhythms if nothing else. [/quote] I was thinking the same. Perhaps it's accented changes the OP is having problems with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 To the OP: That track you linked to is interesting. Sometimes the bass is on the beat, sometimes it's playing syncopation. It's all a bit random. But hey, you're not talking specifically about a tribute version of[i] that track[/i]. Also, I wouldn't follow the visual anyway, they're not the same thing. On the listening: you can listen to an MP3 player on a motorbike or most places. If you want to convert a Youtube track to mp3 you can paste the link into [url="http://hdtransform.com"]this site[/url] and download the mp3 of the sound. http://hdtransform.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadgie Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I thought someone either had timing, or not. But thinking about it there could be different levels of ability. Saying that our old singer was really bad with his timing, but I reckon that was more down to not listening the songs enough as to get a good enough feel to how it went. Flats good??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I used to have the same problem. I got together with our drummer for 2 or 3 sessions, just playing through the songs and finding where the beat is in each one or where things can be pushed or pulled. it was probably the most fun I've ever had in a rehearsal studio - just being able to actively listen to the drums without all that unnecessary guitar and vocals getting in the way. Good times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1421230875' post='2658589'] ...it was probably the most fun I've ever had in a rehearsal studio - just being able to actively listen to the drums without all that unnecessary guitar and vocals getting in the way. Good times. [/quote] Form a Royal Blood-type band, only with DB..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stringsmcginty Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1421219773' post='2658472'] Going by a previous post, at least 21. [/quote] I wish! +10 work full time married + toddler. Not managed to pick up my bass since Monday evening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stringsmcginty Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='dadofsix' timestamp='1421203499' post='2658457'] How good is your drummer? Is his or her meter solid? [/quote] Drummer is very good, he's great, helps me get the count going and if he notices I'm lost shouts 'chsnge' then nods his head in time with the kick drum for a couple of bars until I'm back in. Unfortunately he's in Durham at uni and we're in Lancashire do he's MIA at the mo and we're coping without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='2stringsmcginty' timestamp='1421234119' post='2658659'] I wish! +10 work full time married + toddler. Not managed to pick up my bass since Monday evening [/quote] Ditto Two months for me .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='2stringsmcginty' timestamp='1421234119' post='2658659'] I wish! +10 work full time married + toddler. Not managed to pick up my bass since Monday evening [/quote] Then based on the nature of the issues you outlined and that you haven't been able to pick up your bass in the last couple of days, I would give thought to whether this is the right time in your life to be studying the bass guitar. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stringsmcginty Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1421240673' post='2658788'] Then based on the nature of the issues you outlined and that you haven't been able to pick up your bass in the last couple of days, I would give thought to whether this is the right time in your life to be studying the bass guitar. Blue [/quote] True, time is required. Had I not been out the last two evenings (one of which was practice) I would have had time. I've been playing bass since 2002, not made the time as much since graduating which would definitely be a contributing factor to the issues I'm having now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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