Bar Band Venues The Good vs The Bad

[blue]

Ok, not sure this thread will be of interest or benefit. But I'll start anyway. Here we go!

[size=4][font=Arial]Not only veteran but new bands entering the bar band or in you guys case the pub band vertical run into problems and can end up discouraged to the point where right out of the shoot you have a negative perspective on gigging. This isn't good IMO.[/font]

[font=Arial]Guys, keep in mind this is a difficult topic to broach here because your pub band vertical is significantly different than our bar band vertical in the States. The primary difference is the performance time, in most cases 2 hours for a pub gig and 4 hours for a bar gig. However lets not let that be the focus of this discussion.[/font]

[font=Arial]So often we will hear guys say I dread playing here or there or I like that place or very cool place to play. I look back on 2014 and wonder why some of the new business we tried to work into never turned into anything, meaning the gigs was a dud and the band wasn't asked back.I am sure many of you have experienced this.[/font]

[font=Arial]I think one thing bands have to consider when it comes to new business is, do your home work on the venue. [/font][/size][list]
[*][size=4][font=Arial]Location, is it down town where a lot of people including your fans can access it[/font][/size]
[*][size=4][font=Arial]Is it sitting out in the middle of no where [/font][/size]
[*][size=4][font=Arial]Does the Manager or owner have experience with live rock bands [/font][/size]
[*][size=4][font=Arial]Does the Manager understand his clientele [/font][/size]
[*][size=4][font=Arial]Do they have a history of having live bands at least once a week, do they book bands like yours[/font][/size]
[/list]
[size=4][font=Arial]Those are just a few talking points for us to work with. But how about this, has anyone in your band ever said, [i]" This is a new place , it's really small and I think it's going to suck for us, but lets do it for the money". [/i][/font]

[font=Arial]IMHO playing venues that are not good for the band is not a good idea, not even for you newbie's struggling and will play any where just to get a chance to play. You veterans that know and understand the business should know better.[/font]

[font=Arial]Well, I think you know the kind of discussion and exchange I'm looking for.[/font]

[font=Arial]Share your stories and more important share you opinion whether you have been gigging for a year or 50 years.[/font]

[font=Arial]Blue[/font][/size]

Edited January 16, 2015 by blue

[Happy Jack]

What is a "pub band vertical"?

[The Admiral]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1421392269' post='2660625']
What is a "pub band vertical"?
[/quote]

My take on it was starting at the bottom and working up, or a scale of venue quality. Two nations separated by a common language!

[Bassman Steve]

The perennial problem is the sheer number of bands. There will always be people who will play for nothing and the landlords know that. It is for this reason the money hasn't changed in about 40 years (pretty much). The quality of the band makes little difference in this scenario.

In the same way, the UK audience s different. I have played in Europe a lot and would far rather just play there. The audiences are well behaved, up for a good time from the off, the landlords consider it rude to not feed and water the band and you get more money.

I reckon the UK is the worst place to be a musician.

Good to be alive isn't it? :-)

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1421394473' post='2660641']
My take on it was starting at the bottom and working up, or a scale of venue quality. Two nations separated by a common language!
[/quote]

OK, just so long as a pub band vertical doesn't end up as a pub band horizontal by the end of a heavy night ...

[blue]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1421392269' post='2660625']
What is a "pub band vertical"?
[/quote]

The pub band vertical would be the pubs that cater to pub bands as opposed to your wedding, corporate or functions bands.. Look at it this way, it's that specific sector of business for pub bands.

Blue

[blue]

It's a tough call, however when a pub or a bar band knowingly takes a bad gig for the money only it could have consequences.For example what if the wrong person sees you playing a *"beat" gig.

Blue

* small to no crowd and those that are there are not interested.

[blue]

Here's another one some of you might have heard from pub owners unless they are completely different species than bar owners;

[i]"I want to try some live music here"[/i]

Over here your either in the live band business or not [i]"trying out"[/i] live music usually doesn't work. Most of the time the clientele doesn't want live music.

Blue

[Truckstop]

Yeah if you want to start having live music at your pub or bar, then you need to try it out regularly for at least a year to see if it works properly and has any potential.

Truckstop

[FinnDave]

I.m definitely going to be using the phrase 'the pub band vertical' as much as possible at tonight's gig. I'll probably get thrown out for being drunk and disorderly!

[stuckinthepod]

We are plugging away at the low end of the "pub vertical" having only started gigging the band last August and did 5 gigs in 2014. We have six booked so far for this year. We are happy to play where we can get gigs that play hard/classic rock. Getting the gigs is proving difficult as many pubs are booked up and seem to rebook the same old faithful bands over trying our new acts. Our best gig last year was a biker oriented pub and we played to crowd of 200 and went down well and the worse was playing to approximately 20 disinterest punters in a dodgy place we wont be returning to. Many of the pubs seem to think promoting the bands they have on is writing the bands name on a chalk board on the night! We are more interested in playing rock/music orientated venues over the standard boozers but this year will be mainly learning and getting our name about so we'll have to take what we can get. Good news is we are playing a decent biker/rock bar next weekend.

Edited January 16, 2015 by stuckinthepod

[Bassmonkey]

We typically play in pubs. There is a definite trend of places who haven't typically had live music trying to get a band night going. A lot of pubs in Yorkshire seem to be struggling and the high streets are full of old pubs that have shut down some turned in to other things, some demolished and some just empty. Can't really blame the owners for trying to stimulate business. Apart from if they want us to play upstairs, the issues we see most is pubs lack of advertising the event and their expectation that hoards of music fans are gonna stream in to see the band. I always set their expectation in advance now. Also ask that they clear an area before we arrive and tell them how long and when we will play to avoid misunderstanding on the night. Works OK but have had enquiries from pubs who expect us to play for nothing or very cheaply (usually with a promise of loads of exposure in return) and those that offer us a beer option with a small fee. Again - not much use to us as we are all driving. Cant complain though, the good ones keep coming and often a new venue turns out great so becomes a regular one. Another irritating factor is the number of pubs with volume and neighbour problems. Have had bad experiences with sound limiters and over sensitive landlords. Honestly, if you book a rock band, they are gonna make a noise. If you can't have noise, don't book a rock band. easy. The worst landlord though is the one who fancies themselves as a sound engineer telling us how the mix should be. PLEEEEEAAAASE.

[Weststarx]

I would class a venue either good or bad on two things:

The landlord and the crowd.

Good landlord > good crowd > Excellent venue
Bad landlord > good crowd > Okay venue, but makes me wonder if I want to make that landlord money
Good landlord > bad crowd > Paid rehearsal, but dont book too many dates
Bad landlord > bad crowd > We don't bother

Obviously its really hard to always find the top option, but if we can get a gig with a good crowd that appreciates what we do then thats great.

Thankfully we dont get too many bad landlords, we've only had to tell one to sod off once recently. He was one of those type of landlords thats a professional Singer, Guitarist, Bassist, Drummer and Sound Engineer, and tells us what he thinks we should be doing when he hasnt a clue. He was generally the most drunk person in his own pub and tells us he's paying us less than agreed at the end of the gig - probably because we politely ignored his 'musical wisdom' at sound check, which he then proceeds to lecture us with again at the end of the gig...

That was a half decent venue, but because the bloke was a tool [i](I would use stronger language here normally) [/i]he even once came to one of our other gigs at one of his competitors pubs and started abusing our guitarist at the end of the gig - again he was drunk.

So when he asked to play for him this year we kindly told him where to go!

Edited January 16, 2015 by Weststarx

[The Saint]

[size=5]OK, not much help to you guys in the UK but here in France we have our own issues.[/size]

[size=5]I live right down on the Med, so we have a ready-made market of holiday people keen to enjoy themselves. Which is great from May through to September as there are literally hundreds of bars within a 45 minute drive. [/size]

[size=5]All the beach resorts have live music through the summer and if you start to include the hotels, self-catering resorts and camp sites it opens up even more venues. In one resort nearby, the evenings are a cacophony of noise with 10-15 bars in a row all sporting a live band. And every place is jam full of punters.[/size]

[size=5]We’re tapping into the expat market of summer garden-parties, which promises to be lucrative. [/size]

[size=5]We’re also getting approaches from festival organisers. Now that’s good money and a lot of fun.[/size]

[size=5]We started gigging in the spring and at first I couldn’t believe how easy it was to get gigs. Really….!![/size]

[size=5]I’d walk into 10 bars and come out with 6 confirmed bookings. This was for a new band with no history, no website with the request coming from a guy sounding like Officer Crabtree out of ‘Allo ‘Allo…. My French is/was crap and they trusted me…!! [/size]

[size=5]The first couple of gigs were for food and beer only, so they could get an idea of what we were about. But every gig resulted in being asked back for a decent fee. I soon found out that every band is fed and watered (as mentioned above) without question so they must have thought I was mad.[/size]

[size=5]Anyway, within 3 months we were out at least 2 or 3 times a week. And that continued right through to late September. [/size]

[size=5]And that’s when I realised just how seasonal this area is for music. The boss would just came up at the end of the night, thank us and said ‘see you in May’…[/size]

[size=5]We’re lucky in that a few of the local village bars kept us on during the winter, but for a much reduced fee. But it keeps the band together and sometimes it really is a paid rehearsal.[/size]

[size=5]We’ve had no bad experiences from bar owners. All have been as good as gold, always get paid the agreed fee, cash ready in the envelope and never quibbling about the bar tab, although we all drive so not too much of an issue.[/size]

[size=5]So, to answer your points…[/size]

[indent=1][i]1 Location, is it down town where a lot of people including your fans can access it[/i][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][i]2 Is it sitting out in the middle of no where [/i][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][i]3 Does the Manager or owner have experience with live rock bands [/i][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][i]4 Does the Manager understand his clientele [/i][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][i] 5 Do they have a history of having live bands at least once a week, do they book bands like yours[/i][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]The first two are answered above. The last three are[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]
[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]all yes, very much so. They wouldn’t last long if they didn’t.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]Do they appreciate the kind of music we do? No, most couldn’t care less..!![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]I’ve hit on a big plus for me as the singer. I speak English..![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]Most French front men and girls have awful accents when singing. I know I’d have the same issues if I tried to sing in French..! So similar bands to us can be quite painful to listen to.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]So immediately the band sound more authentic because, as far they’re concerned, we could be English or American. We play early rock and roll and rockabilly so it works well. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]I tried to get my French guitarist to do the chat to the audience, but he refused. I asked why and he replied that it sounded better when I did the banter in English. “But they can’t understand an effing thing I‘m saying…..” He smiled and said that it was what the punters were used to. They watch videos of English and American bands pratttling on so it was all quite normal. I swear I’m going to recite a nursey ryhme one night and see if I get any reaction. Apart from my American drummer…!![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]So we certainly don’t get any negativity from gigging. We have quite a few venues that we can play every 6 weeks or so and that keeps it fresh. And if we’re gigging 2-3 times a week in the summer, that’s about as much as I want. And keeps the money coming in..![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]I hope I haven't made all this sound too rosy. I don't want you lot coming down here and nicking all my gigs...[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]Graham[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent]

[blue]

I also think if it's a new pub for your band go there on a night a live rock band is playing and check out the scene.

Is there a respectable amount of people there and more important are they responsive to the band and are they buying premium alcohol. And I'm not talking about these folks that will nurse a pint ( whatever that is, I hear you guys use that term all the time ) all night.

Blue

[Bassmonkey]

Nursing a pint eh? Yeah it's said in the uk. Never done it myself though. Have often drink lots of pints then nursed a bad head the following day ha ha

[Dad3353]

[size=4][i](Disclaimer: cheap jibe, Blue, please don't start throwing tea into the sea over my idiotic jape. I offer my apologies in advance[/i]. )

Keep it up, lads. We'll have our friend Blue writing Queens's English before too long. We might even be able to understand some of it..! [/size]

Edited January 16, 2015 by Dad3353

[blue]

I think the amount of time you guys play makes this issue a tough comparison.

You know, over here, you go out on a limb and play a questionable bar where your not sure if it's a match for your band. You get there, the owner isn't there and your treated poorly by management. Many times the manager doesn't even know what the band is suppose to be paid. Any way your there playing and the place is empty at the beginning of your second set and your hoping for a crowd to magically walk through the doors. It rarely happens.

At least you guys can pack up and leave after two 45 minute sets. We have to stay for the full 4 hours.

Blue

[The Saint]

The four hour gig seems to be the norm for American bars.

I think two gigs a month would finish me off....

So how does that work? We start around 9pm and normally end around midnight with a 20 min break. Depends on the clientele of course, but that's the general rule. UK gigs were usually 2 x 45 mins.

What time would you start and finish?

We normally get between €300-400 per gig for a four piece. Plus all drinks and a decent meal. If you get pro rata then it's not too bad, anything less and it must be hard going.

[leschirons]

In my experience, the points you've listed as homework before you take on the gig, have usually been sorted out by one or more members having been to see a band there previously. In the UK, the venues are usually known to all the local musos so any homework is not really an issue other than "are we, (the band) up to the job?

I've found over the years that appearances can be misleading. Some venues which have all the visual hallmarks of providing a great nights entertainment (for the band and audience) turn out to be a nightmare. Others that are maybe out of the way, too small, bad layout or even empty half the time have provided some of the most enjoyable and memorable nights I can remember.

[blue]

[quote name='The Saint' timestamp='1421474081' post='2661671']
The four hour gig seems to be the norm for American bars.

I think two gigs a month would finish me off....

So how does that work? We start around 9pm and normally end around midnight with a 20 min break. Depends on the clientele of course, but that's the general rule. UK gigs were usually 2 x 45 mins.

What time would you start and finish?[/quote]

We usually start at 8 or 9 and play until 12 or 1.We have a couple of 9:30 starts that have us playing until 1:30 which depending on the crowd can turn to 2:00am.( actually playing there this Friday night ) Place is called Mamies, pictured below. They like us and they treat us nice and always book at least 3 dates at a time. This bar understands bands.We usually have two 15 minute breaks for 4 hours.


It's interesting how different we all are and how we come at music and gigging. One week last summer we were booked 6 nights in a row. I loved it wish it would happen more often.

blue

Edited January 17, 2015 by blue

[leschirons]

[quote name='The Saint' timestamp='1421474081' post='2661671']
The four hour gig seems to be the norm for American bars.

I think two gigs a month would finish me off....

So how does that work? We start around 9pm and normally end around midnight with a 20 min break. Depends on the clientele of course, but that's the general rule. UK gigs were usually 2 x 45 mins.

What time would you start and finish?

We normally get between €300-400 per gig for a four piece. Plus all drinks and a decent meal. If you get pro rata then it's not too bad, anything less and it must be hard going.
[/quote]

Same up here really. We usually actually play for about two and a half hours not including the breaks for about the same money (€350 - 400 for a four piece) and I guess the usual French tradition of being well fed & watered is probably the main advantage over the UK gigs. Like you, I don't think I could handle many of Blues' 4 hour sessions.

I have a few mates in Paris and from what they tell me, it's grim up north (in Paris that is) They are all fighting over the same gigs, for not much money and, you need to be very good to get in the door. It's a real struggle for them compared to us out in the sticks.

I imagine that's the case when you have so many top class players in a relatively small area.

[blue]

What do most of you guys think about this food and being fed thing.

In some cases when a band member presents a new gig to us he will say "It's 4 hours, $500.00 and we can eat free of charge".

Personally, I could care less about food. Just let me know what the pay is. I never eat at gigs either before or after the gig.

Blue

Edited January 17, 2015 by blue

[leschirons]

But in France they will always lay on a meal for the band as it has always been that way. So, the band accepts that it's always part of the evening / gig. Personally, I find it makes the whole experience that much nicer and laid back.

Anyone who performs live in France is usually afforded the utmost respect. I don't need that in order to do my job but I think it's a lovely sentiment.

[blue]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1421532905' post='2662506']
But in France they will always lay on a meal for the band as it has always been that way. So, the band accepts that it's always part of the evening / gig. Personally, I find it makes the whole experience that much nicer and laid back.

Anyone who performs live in France is usually afforded the utmost respect. I don't need that in order to do my job but I think it's a lovely sentiment.
[/quote]

That's really what this thread is about. There are bars over here that understand how to treat bands. They will help out with storage space as soon as you start loading in. Let you know what the comp is on drinks. It's usually around $100.00 for the band. Pay in cash at the end of the night.

And then some bars that don't have a clue.

blue