Bar Band Venues The Good vs The Bad

[BILL POSTERS]

[attachment=181342:10614355_10152255228026524_6030241476583092154_n.jpg]

Nicked from somebody elses Facebook.

[ubit]

There was a place we used to play where you could almost guarantee a fight every weekend. Very often cat fights. The thing is, it was always a good night in there, plus our gear was safe on a little stage. We didn't mind trading off the rough aspect for the fact that it was a good crowd. They would let us in to set up and sound check in the afternoon and we always got a lock in too.

Another place we play, it's arrive, set up, play. Half the folk aren't even listening and it gets tiring. You have to feel that your entertaining someone.

These days I'm always glad when a party or wedding comes along. Thats usually a good night as people want to get up and enjoy themselves .

Edited January 19, 2015 by ubit

[Telebass]

[quote name='The Saint' timestamp='1421443995' post='2661453'] [size=5]OK, not much help to you guys in the UK but here in France we have our own issues.[/size] [size=5]I live right down on the Med, so we have a ready-made market of holiday people keen to enjoy themselves. Which is great from May through to September as there are literally hundreds of bars within a 45 minute drive. [/size] [size=5]All the beach resorts have live music through the summer and if you start to include the hotels, self-catering resorts and camp sites it opens up even more venues. In one resort nearby, the evenings are a cacophony of noise with 10-15 bars in a row all sporting a live band. And every place is jam full of punters.[/size] [size=5]We’re tapping into the expat market of summer garden-parties, which promises to be lucrative. [/size] [size=5]We’re also getting approaches from festival organisers. Now that’s good money and a lot of fun.[/size] [size=5]We started gigging in the spring and at first I couldn’t believe how easy it was to get gigs. Really….!![/size] [size=5]I’d walk into 10 bars and come out with 6 confirmed bookings. This was for a new band with no history, no website with the request coming from a guy sounding like Officer Crabtree out of ‘Allo ‘Allo…. My French is/was crap and they trusted me…!! [/size] [size=5]The first couple of gigs were for food and beer only, so they could get an idea of what we were about. But every gig resulted in being asked back for a decent fee. I soon found out that every band is fed and watered (as mentioned above) without question so they must have thought I was mad.[/size] [size=5]Anyway, within 3 months we were out at least 2 or 3 times a week. And that continued right through to late September. [/size] [size=5]And that’s when I realised just how seasonal this area is for music. The boss would just came up at the end of the night, thank us and said ‘see you in May’…[/size] [size=5]We’re lucky in that a few of the local village bars kept us on during the winter, but for a much reduced fee. But it keeps the band together and sometimes it really is a paid rehearsal.[/size] [size=5]We’ve had no bad experiences from bar owners. All have been as good as gold, always get paid the agreed fee, cash ready in the envelope and never quibbling about the bar tab, although we all drive so not too much of an issue.[/size] [size=5]So, to answer your points…[/size] [indent=1][i]1 Location, is it down town where a lot of people including your fans can access it[/i][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][i]2 Is it sitting out in the middle of no where [/i][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][i]3 Does the Manager or owner have experience with live rock bands [/i][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][i]4 Does the Manager understand his clientele [/i][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][i] 5 Do they have a history of having live bands at least once a week, do they book bands like yours[/i][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]The first two are answered above. The last three are[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]all yes, very much so. They wouldn’t last long if they didn’t.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]Do they appreciate the kind of music we do? No, most couldn’t care less..!![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]I’ve hit on a big plus for me as the singer. I speak English..![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]Most French front men and girls have awful accents when singing. I know I’d have the same issues if I tried to sing in French..! So similar bands to us can be quite painful to listen to.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]So immediately the band sound more authentic because, as far they’re concerned, we could be English or American. We play early rock and roll and rockabilly so it works well. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]I tried to get my French guitarist to do the chat to the audience, but he refused. I asked why and he replied that it sounded better when I did the banter in English. “But they can’t understand an effing thing I‘m saying…..” He smiled and said that it was what the punters were used to. They watch videos of English and American bands pratttling on so it was all quite normal. I swear I’m going to recite a nursey ryhme one night and see if I get any reaction. Apart from my American drummer…!![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]So we certainly don’t get any negativity from gigging. We have quite a few venues that we can play every 6 weeks or so and that keeps it fresh. And if we’re gigging 2-3 times a week in the summer, that’s about as much as I want. And keeps the money coming in..![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]I hope I haven't made all this sound too rosy. I don't want you lot coming down here and nicking all my gigs...[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [indent=1][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5][size=5]Graham[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/indent] [/quote]
Brilliant post!

[Guest Jecklin]

Very interesting thread.

I can't add directly to the theme as I've only ever been Involved in originals music.

Hijacking a bit I will add that friends of mine have had amazing experiences in France and Germany (playing original music).

In the past I've been in situations where you'd be laughed at for asking for money for the bus across london in advance, where as 2 friends had travel costs payed up front by promoters (Berlin and Paris respectively). We're talking 300 capacity venues in each case, not major arena tours!

One of these bands pretty much now only plays in europe as they get better promotion by the venue, better audience vibe, a better fee and the band are looked after better before and after: food etc.

Not all of the UK music scene is bad of course (my current experiences are good) but I think once you are at the 300-500 capacity venues level you are in a tight spot economics wise.

[JTUK]

The way we approach this is that we will be an asset to the venue so it is our choice
first and foremost whether we want to play such the venue and why.
We'll target places and get gigs...it really is that simple. I think it helps
if you can convince on your rhetoric but that is your problem.
The only thing that we'll consider is that we'll drop the fee as a sweetener
or an act of good faith but basically we are going to tell them that our fee
will be towards the higher end of what they can/will pay.
It is important that you can deliver on your part of the deal as well which
is why you need to establish a degree of trust with who you deal with.

By the same token you should know what your market can pay and make sure
you are able to work to it.

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1421530838' post='2662460']
What do most of you guys think about this food and being fed thing.

In some cases when a band member presents a new gig to us he will say "It's 4 hours, $500.00 and we can eat free of charge".

Personally, I could care less about food. Just let me know what the pay is. I never eat at gigs either before or after the gig.

Blue
[/quote]

Decents pubs..? .the LL will buy you a drink. That is good enough/appreciated as no one drinks much anyway.
The LL are like our friends anyway...that is always the goal or aim.
Parties/fucntions..? food is provided, always. We may have to ask for it when taking the gig but most
bookers will do everything to make their event run well. They will also provide parking space and load-in
people/help.

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1421446600' post='2661489']
I also think if it's a new pub for your band go there on a night a live rock band is playing and check out the scene.

Is there a respectable amount of people there and more important are they responsive to the band and are they buying premium alcohol. And I'm not talking about these folks that will nurse a pint ( whatever that is, I hear you guys use that term all the time ) all night.

Blue
[/quote]

A new venue will want an established band ..or who ever they book..to pull in people.
Any old band can tell the bar how many ppl they will bring but there is really no point
saying you expect to bring 50 and bring in 4... That is not the way to start a new
gig relationship and tbh, if bands pull those tricks they'll not survive....or deserve to, IMO.
Landlords talk so they will swap stories about the best bands and the good pulling bands.
The upside of this, ....is that average ability bands can still get gigs if they can deliver the
people.

One of the worst bands I've seen recently pretty much set the 'record' for attendence
at a local pub. Not entirely sure how they did it but the LL was delighted on his 'punt'
on a new/unknown band with no track record.
The fact that muso type people went to view 'blind' and will very unlikely go again may
or may not cost the band. I am tempted to go to their next gig just to see if they pull
off those numbers again..

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1421761315' post='2664624']
A new venue will want an established band ..or who ever they book..to pull in people.
Any old band can tell the bar how many ppl they will bring but there is really no point
saying you expect to bring 50 and bring in 4... That is not the way to start a new
gig relationship and tbh, if bands pull those tricks they'll not survive....or deserve to, IMO.
Landlords talk so they will swap stories about the best bands and the good pulling bands.
The upside of this, ....is that average ability bands can still get gigs if they can deliver the
people.

One of the worst bands I've seen recently pretty much set the 'record' for attendence
at a local pub. Not entirely sure how they did it but the LL was delighted on his 'punt'
on a new/unknown band with no track record.
The fact that muso type people went to view 'blind' and will very unlikely go again may
or may not cost the band. I am tempted to go to their next gig just to see if they pull
off those numbers again..
[/quote]

The thread is really about bands picking venues that are good for the band, not about exaggerating the truth about your draw to get a gig.

Regarding draw or attendance, I agree. Same thing over here. Some of the worse bands musically have huge draws and some of the most talented have nothing. Most of these everyday people/punters ( I don't actually know what a punter is, but I think I'm using it in the right context) are not going out to see talent they are going out to see what they like.

You also mentioned that a new venue will go after an established band. That gets tricky, established means only one thing here in Milwaukee. It means an agency represented functions or corporate band playing classic rock hits. And it doesn't matter if their any good or not.

Blue

Edited January 21, 2015 by blue

[Dad3353]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1421875799' post='2666180']...I don't actually know what a punter is...
[/quote]

Take your pick...

Punter (Oxford English Dictionary...)...[list=1]
[*][size=4]A player who ‘punts’ or plays against the bank at certain card-games.[/size]
[*][size=4]transf. A small professional backer of horses. Also, one who gambles in stocks and shares, or on football pools. [/size]
[*][size=4]slang. A name for a member of various classes of criminal, esp. one who assists in the commission of a crime. [/size]
[*][size=4]slang. The victim of a swindler or confidence trickster. [/size]
[*][size=4]colloq. A customer or client; a member of an audience or spectator; the client of a prostitute. In some contexts almost synonymous with person (but [/size]deprecatory[size=4]...).[/size]
[/list]
Also...[list]
[*][size=4]In earlier use, one who goes fishing or shooting in a punt; often = punt-gunner; later, one who punts or manages a punt.[/size]
[/list]
...or...[list]
[*][size=4]In various forms of football, one who punts.[/size]
[/list]

Edited January 21, 2015 by Dad3353

[JapanAxe]

If there's one thing that's likely to put me off a venue it's a bad load in/out. I don't mean having to fight your way through the drunken door-blockers at the end of the gig (which can happen anywhere), I mean:

- loads of stairs, especially narrow stairs;
- long walks from the car through multiple sets of doors or across gravel;
- having to park on double yellow lines whilst loading;
- having to park 10 minutes' walk from the venue; and
- a location that becomes drunk-fight central at load-out time.

These things can mar an otherwise excellent evening!

Oh yes, and being expected to cram into a tiny space next to the main traffic route to a toilet.

Edited January 21, 2015 by JapanAxe

[blue]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1421880393' post='2666286']
If there's one thing that's likely to put me off a venue it's a bad load in/out. I don't mean having to fight your way through the drunken door-blockers at the end of the gig (which can happen anywhere), I mean:

- loads of stairs, especially narrow stairs;
- long walks from the car through multiple sets of doors or across gravel;
- having to park on double yellow lines whilst loading;
- having to park 10 minutes' walk from the venue; and
- a location that becomes drunk-fight central at load-out time.

These things can mar an otherwise excellent evening!

Oh yes, and being expected to cram into a tiny space next to the main traffic route to a toilet.
[/quote]

Yeah , we have a few like that. The venues that can clearly see the band is struggling with load in and they offer absolutely no type of help.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1421879154' post='2666260']
Take your pick...

Punter (Oxford English Dictionary...)...[list=1]
[*][size=4]A player who ‘punts’ or plays against the bank at certain card-games.[/size]
[*][size=4]transf. A small professional backer of horses. Also, one who gambles in stocks and shares, or on football pools. [/size]
[*][size=4]slang. A name for a member of various classes of criminal, esp. one who assists in the commission of a crime. [/size]
[*][size=4]slang. The victim of a swindler or confidence trickster. [/size]
[*][size=4]colloq. A customer or client; a member of an audience or spectator; the client of a prostitute. In some contexts almost synonymous with person (but [/size]deprecatory[size=4]...).[/size]
[/list]
Also...[list]
[*][size=4]In earlier use, one who goes fishing or shooting in a punt; often = punt-gunner; later, one who punts or manages a punt.[/size]
[/list]
...or...[list]
[*][size=4]In various forms of football, one who punts.[/size]
[/list]
[/quote]

Ok, looks like number 5 is the way it's used on this forum.

Blue

[JTUK]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1421880393' post='2666286']
If there's one thing that's likely to put me off a venue it's a bad load in/out. I don't mean having to fight your way through the drunken door-blockers at the end of the gig (which can happen anywhere), I mean:

- loads of stairs, especially narrow stairs;
- long walks from the car through multiple sets of doors or across gravel;
- having to park on double yellow lines whilst loading;
- having to park 10 minutes' walk from the venue; and
- a location that becomes drunk-fight central at load-out time.

These things can mar an otherwise excellent evening!

Oh yes, and being expected to cram into a tiny space next to the main traffic route to a toilet.
[/quote]

All these will disqualify a gig for me... and pretty much damns a local town as far as I am concerned
as most or all these apply. Wont play there ...way too much hassle for £50 or so.

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1421894816' post='2666395']


Ok, looks like number 5 is the way it's used on this forum.

Blue
[/quote]
Good to see an American (or Septic) getting to grips with the vernacular of the Mother Tongue. You will be reinstating the letter 'u' in written language next! You are, of course, quite correct that we are using definition number 5 of the word 'punter' - a shockingly high proportion of the audience are clients of prostitutes... 😄😀

Edited January 23, 2015 by peteb

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1422002643' post='2667519']
Good to see an American (or Septic) getting to grips with the vernacular of the Mother Tongue. You will be reinstating the letter 'u' in written language next! You are, of course, quite correct that we are using definition number 5 of the word 'punter' - a shockingly high proportion of the audience are clients of prostitutes...
[/quote]

I've played that Huddersfield pub near the station as well.

[blue]

[quote name='stuckinthepod' timestamp='1421415294' post='2660929']
We are plugging away at the low end of the "pub vertical" having only started gigging the band last August and did 5 gigs in 2014. We have six booked so far for this year. We are happy to play where we can get gigs that play hard/classic rock. Getting the gigs is proving difficult as many pubs are booked up and seem to rebook the same old faithful bands over trying our new acts. Our best gig last year was a biker oriented pub and we played to crowd of 200 and went down well and the worse was playing to approximately 20 disinterest punters in a dodgy place we wont be returning to. Many of the pubs seem to think promoting the bands they have on is writing the bands name on a chalk board on the night! We are more interested in playing rock/music orientated venues over the standard boozers but this year will be mainly learning and getting our name about so we'll have to take what we can get. Good news is we are playing a decent biker/rock bar next weekend.
[/quote]

This is a great post, The poster gave enough background on the band and the scenario to make some sense of it. It also shows how difficult it is to get the gigging machine up and running. Over here we see so many start ups ads saying things like, [i]"Were almost ready to go, we should be gigging by March.[/i]My thoughts are usually[i], "really and hows that going to happen, magic?"[/i]


Off topic; For some future threads I think we would all benefit if we knew a little about the poster;[list]
[*]Age
[*]How long have you been playing
[*]Gigging Musician, How long have you been gigging
[*]Bedroom guy
[*]Home Recording guy
[*]Veteran, gigged for years, however stopped because it was no longer fun.
[*]Newbie
[/list]
Perspectives and diversity of views on any given topic is great, however my response to most issues will differ if the poster is 17 to say a guy that's 50 years old. Same applys to how I respond to a guy with 2 gigs under his belt as opposed to the veteran whose been out in the trenches for 30 years or the guy that is doing headliner pro shows.

Blue

Edited January 25, 2015 by blue

[peteb]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1422132667' post='2669155']


I've played that Huddersfield pub near the station as well.
[/quote]
😄😄

Edited January 25, 2015 by peteb

[JTUK]

Good venues come to good bands pretty easily or else they stick with a known entity.
That is natural... but if the pub/venue has anything about them, then they have their ear to the ground
and some LL will be very keen on feedback on the band playing down the road. Some LL's even go out
and see a band they have heard a lot about.
Making a pub or venue a decent gig needs a lot of footwaork most of the time and they will have to put
a lot of groundwork in. They may even have to be prepared to run for 6 months at a loss before they get
established, but they need to have a decent venue that people will go to.
One of the 'better' gigs around here...from the bands POV.. is a decent enough place but has poor air con...
and they can't open the windows, therefore this is off-putting to a lot of women. For this reason..plus the
fact that he isn' the best payer, puts me off. We have been told by quite a few people that they wont see us there.
Shame..because the LL is a music fan and has worked VERY hard so deserves his turnouts which are generally good.
As a band on the rosta, I would like to see the attendences doing very well, as that helps every band, every week, but by the same
token, that band has to be good enough. If the pub gets full houses, he will be able to afford ..and be prepared to.. the best bands
around. These are the best venues.
I have noticed, just lately, that the bands have been a tad heavier than the norm in our 'best' local music pub... so will keep an eye out of that pattern.
I think there are one or two others who have their eyes on their own market...and if they pitch in properly and are committed, they'll
do very well..and maybe usurp the current incumbents..??

For me...I'll only target 2 of the pubs in the townarea...for fri/sat nights so it will be interesting to see who drops out.

[blue]

It's great when you can get on the schedule for any of the bars that have proven themselves as a place that features live rock music. Over here these places have [i]"built in" [/i]crowds. However you have to be good enough to maintain and keep the crowd there.

Blue

Edited January 26, 2015 by blue

[tauzero]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1421880393' post='2666286']
- having to park on double yellow lines whilst loading;
- having to park 10 minutes' walk from the venue; and
[/quote]

The Grapes in Stafford is like that - park on the pavement to load/unload (the local constabulary don't mind), park on a road a five minute walk away, but on the positive side, they have a PA so they're forgiven.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1422227807' post='2670200']
The Grapes in Stafford is like that - park on the pavement to load/unload (the local constabulary don't mind), park on a road a five minute walk away, but on the positive side, they have a PA so they're forgiven.
[/quote]

Yeah, and you go back to your car half expecting an argument for parking outside somebodys house up that narrow road. House PA's Ok there, but the sound on the stage is weird with the PA overhead and, sort of a Bass trap isnt it ?

[blue]

Then there are the bars/pubs/clubs that will not let the band use the parking lot. So, you either double park in the parking lot to load in your gear or hunt for street parking and walk your gear in.

Blue

Edited January 26, 2015 by blue

[blue]

What are the LLs like in the UK. If the place is packed and they have an extraordinary night for alcohol sales. Will The LL let it "trickle down" and slip the band an extra $100.00? Rarely happens over here. However, on those nights we usually do very well with tips. Interesting because over hear tip jars are common for bar bands. We packed a place this past Friday night and there was over $200.00 in the jar. When it's that much we divide it up and pay it out at the end of the night along with our standard fee.

I understand you guys frown on tip jars in the UK. Cultural difference I guess. You guys aren't as money hungry as us Yanks?

Blue

Edited January 26, 2015 by blue

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1422239055' post='2670253']
What are the LLs like in the UK. If the place is packed and they have an extraordinary night for alcohol sales. Will The LL let it "trickle down" and slip the band an extra $100.00? Rarely happens over here. However, on those nights we usually do very well with tips. Interesting because over hear tip jars are common for bar bands. We packed a place this past Friday night and there was over $200.00 in the jar. When it's that much we divide it up and pay it out at the end of the night along with our standard fee.

I understand you guys frown on tip jars in the UK. Cultural difference I guess. You guys aren't as money hungry as us Yanks?

Blue
[/quote]
Occasionally landlords will give the band a bit of a bonus if they get a better night saleswise than expected. Happened with us on Saturday night. The issue with tip jars, which tends to be a bucket being taken round the room depends on the venue. Some do but most don't. You can get quite a big boost to your money from the bucket, but pubs that tend to have a lower base fee if they know that they can rely on a decent tip collection.

It's not so much that Brits are not so bothered about the money, more that there is a recognition that you're not going to make much from playing pubs! You will find that we're a lot hotter on how much we get paid when you start getting into function bands, eg where there is potentially money to be made...

[JTUK]

Some LL's will throw a bonus but too often they need a really good night to subsidise a bad night
so whilst it is not always so obvious WHY the place has a poorer turnout, you can understand a
LL keeping a lid on what he will pay. This is why the rosta is important as the ideal is to get the
venue to have people that will turnout regularly even if the don't know the band. But people do
like to feel like any band the pub has is worth going to checking out. This is why I'm in kind of
favour of a hierachy in certain pubs so that that stands a good chance of working.

Not as easy as that, of course, and sometimes in pubs you have to accept the gig is 'better/worth doing', rather
than the fee.

Pubs don't put around a jar as they may put upto a $ on the price of a pint.. but then that is also reflected in
what the band charges. Punters wont pay twice in a non tip type culture..the price of beer is off putting enough..!!

You can normally tell what bands charge by the 'tax' on the bar price.
Simple equation around here is £3.90 a pint on real beer means the band is charging £350 which is higher end
for a sunday 5pm slot.. A lot of pubs wont/can pay that fri/sat peak evening..

Basically, I think pubs work and the LL WILL pay what he earns... so he doesn't mind paying out his top dollar
if he gets the great nights takings.
If you know what £2k of drinks sales look like..you're golden..!!