Cheap basses vs Expensive basses

[alembic1989]

hello to all.
Looking at the various bass kits around..especially through neck type kits.
If a bass kit has ( for example) an ash body, 5 piece laminated neck and costs around £100.... How would that be any different to a similar spec body made by big money makers?
I'm NOT talking about the hardware.
I guess what I'm saying is that if I pulled the trigger on such a kit and added high quality hardware is there any reason why it can't be every bit as good as a high end boutique bass?

Any of you knowledgable people out there have an opinion?
I'd love to hear it.

[discreet]

My opinion is that it's not just about the components (though important). What you pay for in a high-end boutique bass is the skill, knowledge and experience of the luthier - for example I could buy the most expensive body, neck and hardware available and I'd most likely put together a bass that's unplayable and only good for firewood. YMMV.

Edited January 24, 2015 by discreet

[chris_b]

A cheap bass isn't going to have much spent on materials and won't be put together with as much care.

Everything on your bass is going to affect the tone so a cheap bass will react, feel and sound differently to a better built bass which is made of better materials.

That might not matter to a player so a cheap bass will be a good buy. But if you can hear the difference, and that difference is important to you then you'll probably buy a better built, more expensive instrument.

An example of either end of the scale I'm talking about would be Wish basses and Fodera.

[alembic1989]

I'm not talking about how it's put together..I'm talking about the bare bones..BEFORE it's put together with the hardware.
.....just the body and neck.
What's the difference between an ash ( for example) body with through neck in kit form....and ash body with through neck made by Mr " mega bucks boutique man"??

[Bassassin]

I'd think the most obvious thing (beyond the quality of the basic timber) would be standard of construction, fretting, finishing etc. Not that I'm a particular advocate of megabucks expensive botique coffee-tables, mind, lots of modern mass-produced "budget" instruments are great quality for the money.

Which makes me interested - what are these £100 through-neck kits of which you speak?

Jon.

[JTUK]

I think good seasoned sustainable wood costs... so I'd be interested to know what a £100 kit would actually get you.

I have decent basses and the guy who put them together can do that very well... and that 'skill' pervades
throughout...
The last time I looked... a decent neck from someone like Sims would cost you £400 or so.. and that would
be on the fancy side aesthetically, I'd think. The body ..?? something like £300 plus... without finish..?

I haven't gone down this route as this bitza would be costing £800 or so before you start adding hardware
and I'd never get the money back for a no name bitza..?? so I really cant see £100 kits really working..
But ..as Chris says, if ppl don't or can't see the value, they'll not want to pay for it, and they may well
be happy with a cheap bass..and get all sorts of joy from it as it suits their remit.

Edited January 24, 2015 by JTUK

[alembic1989]

I'm looking into doing a 6 string fretless.
I've seen 6 string thru neck fretted kits including all the hardware for around £120 ..with an Elm body.
I'm not interested in the hardware..but would potentially de fret and go from there....but Elm?...not sure about that.
I've also seen an Ash body thru neck with laminated neck....already fretless, ....no hardware for around £250.
As I'm looking to play the bass..the resale value doesn't bother me at all.
These are on ebay btw.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1422110570' post='2668798']
I'm looking into doing a 6 string fretless...
[/quote]

This is my 6-string fretless, a birthday gift from our eldest a few years ago now...

[url="http://www.rondomusic.com/product1198.html"]Douglas 6-string fretless ...[/url]

... He got it for me, originally, mainly for the name on the headstock. Since its arrival, it's been 'snaffled' by our youngest, who plays it exclusively now; here at home...



... It does a very fine job at every rehearsal and outing that we do. I did replace the pre-amp (witha low-cost 'drop-in' equivalent...) when the original failed, though.
The best part of it is the price, in dollars (scroll down; $129; [size=4]OK, that was 2009...[/size]). There are certainly better basses out there, at higher (or even [i]much [/i]higher ...) prices, but this one does the job very much well enough for us. What wood it it..? Goodness knows.
Hope this helps.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Dad3353

[Annoying Twit]

The Douglas six string basses are, I believe, rebadged Shine basses. Though, I haven't seen fretless versions on this side of the pond. The same basses could be bought rebadged as Harley Bentons. I can't remember who (sorry), but a well known member on here has one. I have the Shine myself, but IMHO my one is not the best example and I hacked it up a bit.

I don't claim huge experience, but what I've seen suggests to me that one particular difference between cheap basses and better basses is how well the nut is cut. When I first started sawing away at nuts myself, I was very surprised how much the feel of the basses improved. It isn't that difficult to cut a nut. However, I personally believe that the quality of fretwire matters in terms of neck feel, and that is difficulty to fix. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that one.

The only neck through kit I've seen available in the UK is the Stellah neck through six string fretless: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Stellah-String-Fretless-Kit-Project/dp/B007OWQOIY"]http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/B007OWQOIY[/url] The same bass turns up under different names. The kits were about £200 when I first saw them, but I think I saw them being sold for a cheaper price somewhere. (searches). £172 delivered on ebay. [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bass-6-String-Fretless-Style-with-Thru-Body-DIY-Project-Electric-Guitar-Kit-/390876329661?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item5b020b76bd"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item5b020b76bd[/url]


I'd be curious to know where these £100 kits are from? Do they have to be ordered from China through alibaba or similar? Once duties and charges are paid, they could get quite a bit more expensive. If I bought a kit from alibaba, I'd be interested in this Gretsch Falcon kit:

[url="http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SNGK045-DIY-Unfinished-Bass-Guitar-Kit_60106486482/showimage.html"]http://www.alibaba.c.../showimage.html[/url]

Though, I'd prefer gold hardware so that it could be finished in white.

EDIT:

EDIT: Still looking for a cheap fretted neck through bass kit, and haven't found one. This is somewhere i the ballpark, trough the price varies a lot and the minimum order is 50 units.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Neck-Thru-style-DIY-bass-guitar_60139070261.html

Edited January 24, 2015 by Annoying Twit

[chris_b]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1422095306' post='2668581']
....I guess what I'm saying is that if I pulled the trigger on such a kit and added high quality hardware is there any reason why it can't be every bit as good as a high end boutique bass?....
[/quote]

So you're asking, if you put a set of Pirelli Pzero's on a Dacia Sandero will it be as good as a BMW i8?

[JTUK]

The thing that concerns me about neck thru is how much wood there is in the neck...
For anything over a 4st, I'd want graphite stringers if I was bothered about neck profile..
which I certainly would be...
The issue with neck thru's..and this probably is more pertinent on cheaper wood,
is how mature/seasoned and how good the wood is as 5 or 6 er necks could expect more of a load
on them...

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Wood is not a homogenous material, and every piece will have slightly different qualities which is one of the reasons that if you try a bunch of mass produced instruments with the same spec from the same manufacturer back to back you will find that they tend to have variation in how much they weigh and how they respond to being played. If you buy a kit, you are taking a gamble because you cannot tell how the different pieces of wood will interact when you finish assembling the instrument - if you buy a complete working instrument you can make a proper judgement about how the instrument feels and discard it if it is a dog before embarking on modifying it.

If I wanted a 6 string fretless, I would certainly consider buying one of these
http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_bz_6000_nt.htm
on the basis that I could evaluate it properly and then either return it or use it as a platform for further modification(defretting, select hardware upgrades), I would also look round my local music shops and gumtree ads for potential secondhand instruments to use, as six strings don't hold their value well secondhand.

One really important issue with the kit basses I have looked at on ebay etc is that the hardware looks like it is cheap trash IMHO, and decent six string hardware is expensive because no-one can really leverage economies of scale due to the low demand. If you cost the price of decent quality bridge/machineheads/pups, you are probably going to have to spend more than buying a decent midrange 6er outright.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1422117823' post='2668908']
If I wanted a 6 string fretless, I would certainly consider buying one of these
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_bz_6000_nt.htm"]http://www.thomann.d..._bz_6000_nt.htm[/url]
on the basis that I could evaluate it properly and then either return it or use it as a platform for further modification(defretting, select hardware upgrades), I would also look round my local music shops and gumtree ads for potential secondhand instruments to use, as six strings don't hold their value well secondhand.
[/quote]

Is it easier or harder to defret and refinish an ebonol fretboard than a wooden one? (No, I'm not thinking of hacking away at my bz7000 ).

[Musky]

What makes an expensive bass worth more than a cheaper one? Because it has something that the cheaper one doesn't - people are prepared to pay plenty for that extra 'something'.

That may be as simple as the name on the headstock, an indefinable feel or the knowledge that you're getting a reliable bass that is completely fettled to your satisfaction. As with many things in life you may be able to get 90% of the quality for 10% of the price, but people will pay an awful lot for that last 10%.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1422118187' post='2668911']
Is it easier or harder to defret and refinish an ebonol fretboard than a wooden one? (No, I'm not thinking of hacking away at my bz7000 ).
[/quote]
No idea tbh, but on a kit instrument you would probably have to do some fine tuning to the fingerboard anyway, so if the prospect of doing that work is scary then don't even consider the DIY route.

[alembic1989]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1422116820' post='2668891']
The thing that concerns me about neck thru is how much wood there is in the neck...
For anything over a 4st, I'd want graphite stringers if I was bothered about neck profile..
which I certainly would be...
The issue with neck thru's..and this probably is more pertinent on cheaper wood,
is how mature/seasoned and how good the wood is as 5 or 6 er necks could expect more of a load
on them...
[/quote]
I'm not talking about cheaper wood..I'm talking about the same wood...and there are high end 6 ers that do not have graphite stringers.

[alembic1989]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1422116175' post='2668878']


So you're asking, if you put a set of Pirelli Pzero's on a Dacia Sandero will it be as good as a BMW i8?
[/quote]
Not quite my friend.
Putting a Bmw i8 engine, running gear, instrumentation, etc into a different car would be a better analogy.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1422120797' post='2668942']
No idea tbh, but on a kit instrument you would probably have to do some fine tuning to the fingerboard anyway, so if the prospect of doing that work is scary then don't even consider the DIY route.
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure I understand how your answer matches my question. I only asked because you said that if you were going to build a fretless you'd start with the BZ6000. It has an ebonol fretboard, and I wondered if that was a factor in your choice of that bass.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1422122566' post='2668993']
I'm not quite sure I understand how your answer matches my question. I only asked because you said that if you were going to build a fretless you'd start with the BZ6000. It has an ebonol fretboard, and I wondered if that was a factor in your choice of that bass.
[/quote]
The BZ6000 is almost the same price as the kit, can be returned after actually playing it, and seeing how the neck responds to the tension of the strings, and any adjustments to the trussrod, and general opinion of the current crop of Harley Benton offerings is very positive. The kits on the other hand are a completely unknown quantity, and even if you used only the stock hardware you will still incur extra expense finishing it and probably have a really difficult time returning it if it turns out that you got one with a defective trussrod or unstable neck timbers that result in the finished article being unplayable. Ebonol is a bit marmite for some people but there are budget fretless fours that use this material for the fingerboard, so it would be fairly easy to check out something like a Squier VM fretless at a local music store and workout whether you loved/hated it before comitting.

There are quite a few offerings from Ibanez, ESP, Yamaha, Cort, Peavey etc that could also be defretted, and if you go the modding route you can get a really clear idea of whether the ergonomics of the bass will work for you before you commit.

[molan]

We sell kits from Carvin and/or individual parts.

I've seen some assembled kits and there is a quite difference between even kit basses from the same manufacturer and their fully finished instruments.

The kit built instruments aren't desperately bad but the general quality of final fit and finish isn't up to the same standard as the professionally built ones.

Of course the kit builders get a lot of satisfaction from self-builds and they save a fair bit of money but I think even they would admit the finished item doesn't have the same quality of a factory instrument.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1422124586' post='2669021']
The BZ6000 is almost the same price as the kit, can be returned after actually playing it, and seeing how the neck responds to the tension of the strings, and any adjustments to the trussrod, and general opinion of the current crop of Harley Benton offerings is very positive. The kits on the other hand are a completely unknown quantity, and even if you used only the stock hardware you will still incur extra expense finishing it and probably have a really difficult time returning it if it turns out that you got one with a defective trussrod or unstable neck timbers that result in the finished article being unplayable. Ebonol is a bit marmite for some people but there are budget fretless fours that use this material for the fingerboard, so it would be fairly easy to check out something like a Squier VM fretless at a local music store and workout whether you loved/hated it before comitting.

There are quite a few offerings from Ibanez, ESP, Yamaha, Cort, Peavey etc that could also be defretted, and if you go the modding route you can get a really clear idea of whether the ergonomics of the bass will work for you before you commit.
[/quote]

Erm, thanks for that information. But my question was due to you choosing the BZ6000 (presumably over other basses) as a starting point for a project. As you were planning to defret the bass, I asked whether the ebonol fretboard which the BZ6000 has would be harder or easier to refret and then refinish than a standard wooden fretboard. You've given me a lot of general information about ebonol fretboards and what people think of them, but not addressed my actual question.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1422125159' post='2669035']
We sell kits from Carvin and/or individual parts.
[/quote]

Are the kits on your website? I had a look and I couldn't find anything. (I might have looked in the wrong place). Not that I'm likely to buy anything as up-market as a Carvin kit. But I'm curious to know what sort of high quality kits are around.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Annoying Twit

[JTUK]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1422121489' post='2668961']
I'm not talking about cheaper wood..I'm talking about the same wood...and there are high end 6 ers that do not have graphite stringers.

[/quote]

You assume the same wood..?? and a finished bass will be a known entity so there will
be R&D there, hopefully so they will know whether to add them of not..
What you are talking about is complete unknowns in a lot of things...??

If you don't think these are relevant, or don't apply, fair enough..fill your boots.

[Kev]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1422095306' post='2668581']
I guess what I'm saying is that if I pulled the trigger on such a kit and added high quality hardware is there any reason why it can't be every bit as good as a high end boutique bass?
[/quote]

So many, many reasons, a lot of which has already been covered in this thread.

It is how the wood is worked with by a skilled luthier that sets apart the cheap from the expensive. You could have the finest quality pieces of Ash and Maple in the world with the best hardware, pickups and preamps money can buy, but with all due respect you will not make a bass of Dingwall/Roscoe et al quality. That is why these companies exist, otherwise we would all be doing it

People talk about big names selling instrument, but ask yourself how they became big names? Fender, well, for obvious reasons, but the likes of Wal, Dingwall, Roscoe, Fodera, they got their names because of the quality of their work with wood, and not because of the quality of the original planks of wood instead.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Kev

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='alembic1989' timestamp='1422121489' post='2668961']
I'm not talking about cheaper wood..I'm talking about the same wood...and there are high end 6 ers that do not have graphite stringers.
��
[/quote] I don't think it is the same woods - the kit that's been linked too has a elm body and who knows what in the neck... I'ld be interested to know which type of elm it is and where it comes from - I thought it was an N American / European species - has this been grown somewhere in asia?
Who knows what the stringers are and how seasoned the wood was... personally if I was looking to build a bass from a kit, I would have though a bolt on design could be fettled easier than a neck though, and the wood used in the neck, and it's construction, is the last place I'ld be making savings.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1422126998' post='2669058']
People talk about big names selling instrument, but ask yourself how they became big names? Fender, well, for obvious reasons, but the likes of Wal, Dingwall, Roscoe, Fodera, they got their names because of the quality of their work with wood, and not because of the quality of the original planks of wood instead.
[/quote] Mind you the fender guitar was a design brief in how to create a cheap, mass produceable guitar....