Transforming a MM pickup into a P pickup - can it be done?

[Osiris]

[size=4][font=Calibri]I recently posted a thread asking for some ideas as to how to stop my Sandberg Basic from sounding like a Stingray.[/font]
[font=Calibri]There's no point repeating myself but [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/252345-changing-the-fundamental-stingray-sound/"]the original thread is here[/url] if anyone wants to know a bit more about where I'm coming from - In short the bass is fantastic in every way and I'm loathed to part with it, but I'm just not a fan of the MM sound.[/font]

[font=Calibri]I was starting to come round to the idea of having a neck pickup fitted but now another idea has struck me, but I want to know if my new idea is viable or just a bit silly.[/font]

[font=Calibri]My new idea is this - can the existing MM style humbucker be 'converted' into a P style single coil using the existing (or identically sized) oversized pole pieces and pickup case? [/font]
[font=Calibri]If this is possible, it obviously eliminates the need for any surgery on the body itself.[/font]

[font=Calibri]My idea would be for a reversed P configuration with the bridge side of the pickup covering the E and A strings and the neck half of the pup covering the D & G strings.[/font]
[font=Calibri]Tonally I'm after something more traditional, more vintage sounding. I don't mind if the pup is wired to the existing 3 band Glockenklang pre-amp or is passive.[/font]
[font=Calibri]Due to the pickup position being closer to the bridge it obviously won't sound exactly like a traditional P but I'm guessing (hoping) that the sound will be more to my taste than the current tone; I've yet to find a bass humbucker yet that has a tone that does it for me, I just prefer single coils. [/font]

[font=Calibri]Any idea if the unused pole pieces would interfere with the tone in anyway?[/font]

[font=Calibri]So, can it be done?[/font]
[font=Calibri]And if so, who comes recommended for such an undertaking? Preferably UK based.[/font]
[font=Calibri]From what I've seen on a few other pickup related threads Armstrong seem to have a good reputation. [/font]

[font=Calibri]Answers on a postcard, please.[/font][/size]

Edited January 29, 2015 by Osiris

[dub]

Before you start taking the pickup apart try wiring the two coils of the MM pickup in series. This will be closer to the precision sound.

[Muzz]

Been all over this question for some time - and the answer is, like so many things - how much do you want to spend? You'd effectively need a quad-coil pickup winding, and take the top-left/bottom-right (or vice versa, depending on how you're looking at it) coils and make them live. You could get a full set of taps done from this configuration, to get series/parallel, front pair, back pair or the diagonals as above, depending on switching. I was in contact with Armstrongs and they can do this.

I've got a Shuker with a single MM pickup, and I'm the same as you: don't like the Ray sound much. I've got mine switched for series, parallel, and just the front pair. Series or parallel don't sound anything like a P to me, but the front coil on its own sounds a bit Jazz single coil-ish, which I'm living with.

I haven't jumped at the custom job yet, because I'm pondering one of these instead: [url="http://nordstrandpickups.com/products/the-bigman/"]http://nordstrandpic...cts/the-bigman/[/url]

[BassBunny]

Have you checked in the control cavity to confirm the pickup is a 2 wire one? I had a 5 string Basic with a Delano MM pickup and it was 4 wire, (although wred in parralel). I just got the wiring diagram from the Delano website and put a coil-tap switch in, ( series/parallel/single ). Worked a treat and the difference in the settings was really noticeable.

[ikay]

What you need is one of these - [url="http://www.simscustom.com/pickups/4string.html"]http://www.simscustom.com/pickups/4string.html[/url]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1422605339' post='2674443']
What you need is one of these - [url="http://www.simscustom.com/pickups/4string.html"]http://www.simscusto...ps/4string.html[/url]
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly!

[Osiris]

Thanks for the suggestions folks.

Money isn't a major consideration, I'm happy to pay a £100+ if it will get me a sound that I'm happy with. Which is what I'd end up paying for a good quality replacement pickup anyway.

The pickup has 4 wires; red and black soldered together and white and green soldered together.
It makes sense to me to start off by trying coil tap and or series/parallel switches first to see how things sound after that.

If I'm still not happy then it'll be time to look at getting my pup modified as in my original post or possibly replacing it.
The Nordstand Bigman looks interesting and is worth a serious look.

Not sure about the Sims Super quad though, the video didn't sell it to me and it looks as though it's a bigger unit than the pickup I have, so after buying the pup and paying them to route the body and fit it etc, it'll cost best part of £300 which is what I paid for the bass!!!

[ColinB]

I've got a SUB Ray4 with a GFS MM pro pick-up that has 4-conductor wiring. I've drilled the control plate and put an ON-OFF-ON SPDT micro-switch between the vol and the treble.

I've wired it up to give 1: split(front coil) 2: Series 3: Series, but with a 4k7 resistor to ground from where the two coil wires meet.

This gives three similar sounds but with differing outputs. I prefer position 3. It doesn't sound exactly like a P, but I'm very happy with it. I first tried a series/parallel switching but the difference between the two was too large to be useful.

If anyone's interested the wiring is as follows....

Neck coil: Green(+) & Red(-)
Bridge coil: White(+) & Black(-)

The green wire is soldered to the input for the pre-amp.
The red&white are soldered together to the middle lug of the switch. So on the middle (OFF) position those two wires are joined but don't 'go' anywhere, so the p/up is in series.
The black wire is soldered to lug #1 and then on to the back of the volume pot. So the black is always grounded. When the switch is up then the red&white are sent to ground to give the split coil sound.
A 4k7 resistor is soldered from lug #1 to lug#3. When the switch is down the red&white are sent to ground through the resistor, giving an output somewhere between the other two sounds. You could experiment with different values of the resistor to see how you like the sounds. (I soldered a 25k linear pot across the switch to begin with to find a sound I liked, and then replaced it with an equivalent resistor.)

Edited January 30, 2015 by ColinB

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1422553104' post='2674054']
[size=4][font=Calibri]...[/font][font=Calibri] P style single coil ...[/font]

[font=Calibri]...[/font][font=Calibri] I've yet to find a bass humbucker yet that has a tone that does it for me, I just prefer single coils. [/font][/size]

[/quote]
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but the Precision bass pickup is not a single-coil pickup. The P pickup is a split-coil humbucker pickup.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1422662094' post='2675514']
He might mean the '51 style pickup.
[/quote]

Indeed he might but it doesn't read that way with the mention of reversal of the '[size=4][font=Calibri]P configuration with the bridge side of the pickup covering the E and A strings and the neck half of the pup covering the D & G'. strings.[/font][/size]

[Osiris]

Errr, oh yeah, I guess the 2 halves of a P pickup do make a humbucker!
To be fair, I'm no expert on these things so apologies for the confusion or apparent contradiction.

When I said that I've yet to find a humbucker that I actually like, I had in mind those pickups that have 2 adjacent coils in a single enclosure like the MM style domino.
Hope that helps.

[The fasting showman]

It sounds like it's the phase cancellation inherent in the stingray pickup sound that you don't like, also a big part of the Fender tele bass mudbucker. That was the genius of the p-bass pickup design in that it is a humbucker but senses separate string pairs thus no phase issues.
Do you like the sound of the MM pickup when coil tapped? A massive single coil pickup like a Darkstar but in a MM case could be good...no forget that, gonna cost way too much!
Martin

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1422701289' post='2675742']
... A massive single coil pickup like a Darkstar but in a MM case could be good...no forget that, gonna cost way too much! ...
[/quote]
Other than cost, this might work well. I don't know whether the MM case fits but even with a bit of routing could soudn excellent and be still saleable.

Bisonic/Darkstar style pickups are available from Curtis Novak.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1422699419' post='2675711']
Errr, oh yeah, I guess the 2 halves of a P pickup do make a humbucker!
To be fair, I'm no expert on these things so apologies for the confusion or apparent contradiction.

When I said that I've yet to find a humbucker that I actually like, I had in mind those pickups that have 2 adjacent coils in a single enclosure like the MM style domino.
Hope that helps.
[/quote]
OK, I wasn't trying to cause trouble; it's a common misconception.

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1422702449' post='2675758']
Other than cost, this might work well. I don't know whether the MM case fits but even with a bit of routing could soudn excellent and be still saleable.

Bisonic/Darkstar style pickups are available from Curtis Novak.
[/quote]Are they similar to the pickups in your Lakland? Probably a good reference then for what a big single coil sounds like. I always think P90s sound great in Gibsons.

Edited January 31, 2015 by The fasting showman

[Muzz]

Yeah, my MM is a Delano, and I've done the coil tapping thing, It's just the sound doesn't really get close to the P-pup for me...tho YMMV, so it might be worth trying the rewire route, shouldn't cost more than £25-30 to have someone do it for you...

The pickup position does mean it won't ever get exactly to the P-pup sound, but you can definitely get away from the MM sound...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1422702796' post='2675765']
Are they similar to the pickups in your Lakland? Probably a good reference then for what a big single coil sounds like. I always thing P90s sound great in Gibsons.
[/quote]
They are similar and - to the OP - Hanson (who make Lakland pickups) do various pickups in various shells and I think you can have the single-coil Chisonics in MM type housings. You can also hear Chisonics at the Lakland website. Again there is a cost.

[Osiris]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1422702988' post='2675770']
Yeah, my MM is a Delano, and I've done the coil tapping thing, It's just the sound doesn't really get close to the P-pup for me...tho YMMV, so it might be worth trying the rewire route, shouldn't cost more than £25-30 to have someone do it for you...

The pickup position does mean it won't ever get exactly to the P-pup sound, but you can definitely get away from the MM sound...
[/quote]

I recently parted ways with a Sandberg JM which had a coil tapped humbucker and the sound was great in single coil mode when it was blended with the neck single coil, think Jazz bass on steroids!

Am I right in thinking that if I get a coil tap fitted that a solo single coil could be a bit noisy?

Yes, I appreciate that whatever happens that it will never sound exactly like a P (that's wishful thinking on my part), but getting away from the MM sound is certainly what I'm aiming for.

I've been speaking to mate of mine who is a bit of a whiz with guitar electronics and he's got a number of options in mind to try, the same as have been mentioned already in this thread, experimenting with series, parallel and phase options.
If we can get it so that it loses or at least reduces the nasal edge to the tone I'll be a happy little bunny.
It makes sense to try the simplest, cheapest and least destructive options first before seriously considering new pickups and custom mods.

Having spent more time playing with various option to alter the fundamental tone, one of the most effective so far has been to cut the mid frequencies on the on-board Glockenklang pre-amp, the greater the cut the less nasal the tone. According to the specs, the pre-amp offers 9db's of boost or cut at 550 hz.
But as with all scooped sounds, it doesn't sit in the mix as well as I want.
(I tend to play with the pre-amp flat on the bass and only minor tonal adjustment on my amp i.e. thing cut back further than about 11 o'clock and nothing boosted beyond about 1 o'clock - this gives me a tone that sits perfectly in the mix).