redbandit599 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hi all Just after a bit of steer. Hoping to be back gigging in earnest in the Spring and with our new singer the band is sounding great (well, by our standards anyway ) We are a 5 piece hard rock/classic metal band. Anyhow, we've always had a very simple approach to PA. We have a powered Peavey mixer (250w per side I think) and two Peavey 15" top cabs - we usually just run vocals in here and rely on backline for everything else. Sometimes put the kick in but this seems to be all 'crack' and not much thud. We run two monitors (soon to be three) two powered and one slave - the mixer amp just has one output for these so it's the same mix in all. We use a TC Helicon Voicelive to add some nice delays etc for the singer. That's it. Anyhow, don't really want to have to swap out what we have but am interested in any ideas as to how we could maybe add in a sub (preferably just one) to give a bit of re-inforcement for the kick and clean it out of the way of the vocals. Just can't quite work out in my head what we'd need- I think a hybrid passive PA and powered sub set up would be the most likely end result, just not quite sure how I'd link it all up! Any help or direction to good resource appreciated. Cheers J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Have you tried EQing the kick to give more thump and less thwack with your existing setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbandit599 Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Cheers. Will have a tinker at next rehearsal with that (we don't usually mic the kick for rehearsal so don't think we've done that recently) - it's a pretty basic EQ but worth a look, you are right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobVbass Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 what model mixer is it? what outputs does it have? you should be able to do what you want with a crossover to send the low freq stuff to your sub or if you've some other (i.e sub - not sub speaker - sub channel )outputs just use one of those for the signal to the sub.. There's a lot of subs in that explanation - I feel like a U boat commander hopefully it makes sense tho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) The correct solution would be to upgrade your desk.... However... If you just want it for kick and want to keep expenditure low, put the kick mic into a little mixer and just put the kick drum into that. Output from the mini desk to powered sub. Probably would be good to put a DI in there bass too if you want to take advantage of extended lows. Edited February 2, 2015 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 You should be able to put a bit of kick drum through your existing set-up without the need for a sub, IMO. I guess it depends how loud you want to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbandit599 Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Thanks chaps. The mixer amp isn't quite as powerful as I first thought. It's a Peavey XRD680s, so 150w x 2. Definitely will try the eq'ing first with existing set up. Turns out that one of the guitarists (and failed studio guru) has an AKG Kick Drum mic that we've never used (having just chucked any old thing in before.) That may help us too I'm sure. Thanks for the 'little mixer' idea should a sub ultimately be required, makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) A 'kick' in the vocal PA is useful for 'spreading' the drums a little, integrating them into the overall sound. We often do this, usually with a single overhead, too. The secret is in the 'a little' part. Unless you're trying to mic up the kit, I'd suggest that a sub is overkill for the job. EQ on the kick channel should give just enough 'presence' in the PA to be balanced with the rest. You won't get an authentic 'kick in the chest' from that, just enough to blend the drums into the venue. Less is more. Micing up to include the bass [i]et al[/i] is, however, a very different affair. I doubt that the 2 x 150 would suffice for that. Edited February 2, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 With that set up you are not making it easy on yourselves. With it being a mixer amp, you will need a separate output to send to an active sub, maybe an aux or fx send if you have one free. Turn the kick up till you can hear it in the tops, and then turn the aux up on that channel till you can hear it in the sub. If your sub is the type with a crossover built in, you you can set the point at about 100Hz (QTX do cheap 15"ones, I just won one on ebay for £40 and it's fine for a little warmth in a small venue.) Mix and tweak until happy. You can apply this to any channel. The problem with this method is it doesn't prevent the sub frequencies going to your tops, just adds a bit of sub to your existing sound,so you need to be careful with the EQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 If it were me, which it isn't, I'd be thinking that a rock/ metal band could do with a little more than 125w per side. Sadly that means changing mixer and then beyond that budget / transport / storage etc are all going to be factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Must admit when the OP stated the genre of music, I would say that the PA sounds a bit on the skinny side... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadgie Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 ah back in the day I remember 100watts H&H was plenty for a pub. It was years before I saw the H&H 'slave' thingy. I think it depends how much air you want to move is it. Things can be loud, or should I say the volume, enough to hurt most peoples ears. It's just the way it's put across. I think for the OP purposes of vox only, 150 per side would be good enough for most small gig/pubs. Saying that, it's nice to get a good thud going as well. Disclaimer: I know pretty much nothing about PA's or sound engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbandit599 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Yep, I think our PA is a 'back in the day' one That said we, do run a 4x12 for each of the guitars and my EBS with 2x10 and 2x12 so shift plenty of air for most pubs via the backline.PA is just for vocals really, and hopefully some kick. Ideally we'd start from scratch again, but as we are just getting back out and about we'll try and make what we have work for a while before substantial investment! Old watts are definitely louder, my old Ampeg 4x10 Combo is 'only' 140w (solid state), still shook plenty of windows! Though I do understand the point of headroom etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) The limiting factor with what you have is the power available. The PV 15's will easily handle the kick, especially if the 15's have the Black Widow drivers but you will run out of power before the speakers run out of excursion. You could fiddle around with the eq, filter off the power hungry low bass from the kick and boost the 80-150Hz range to give a good thump, then roll off the top end to lose a bit of the slap. The other thing to look at is the mic placement, move it around and you'll be surprised how the sound changes, just shoving it anywhere in front of the kick isn't good enough really if you want a decent tone. Old PV speakers aren't particularly good for vocals either. They are fantastically reliable, esp for the money but the horn drivers just don't cut it for vocals IMO. I'd look to change up the whole system at some point rather than spending on something which does a job but ultimately needs upgrading completely if you want a better sound. Homework for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyQhWj2xuB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOHduVBqGeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crp0yx24io4 Edited February 4, 2015 by Phil Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbandit599 Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Cheers Phil, some good pointers in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 If you can eq the bass drum, try to push the mids. That's where you get the punch rather than the boom . Get the 200 area pushed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Try an audix d6 and a great deal of your eq will be taken care of before it hits the desk. Super good kick mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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