machinehead Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='Merton' timestamp='1430862842' post='2765465'] Bill, Alex et al have all got the ears, they have heard what they like/don't like and what is good/bad about speakers, they have learnt why things break/sound crap/sound great. They have the science AND the ears IMO But I think that's what you're getting at isn't it JTUK; one without the other is not so great [/quote] That's a far better explanation than mine. Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1430863180' post='2765472'] That's a far better explanation than mine. Frank. [/quote] Makes a change for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 One of the things that marks out a professional musician, in my experience, is the quality of the sound they produce. I don't care what the instrument is. A pro will pick up a trumpet and get a sound out of it that your average amateur just cannot do - even with the same instrument. As bass players, we probably notice this characteristic more with drummers, but it applies to all musicians - from violinists to pianists. So, when a pro bass player comes along and offers an opinion that is not necessarily mainstream (although perfectly valid IMO), arguing with him on the basis of 'transient response' and 'high Le drivers' is slightly missing the point. And remember, there's science and there's pseudo science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1430900443' post='2765631']So, when a pro bass player comes along and offers an opinion that is not necessarily mainstream (although perfectly valid IMO), arguing with him on the basis of 'transient response' and 'high Le drivers' is slightly missing the point. [/quote]Agreed. There is a place for both (real) science and real world experience. It is a shame that each side seems so scathing about and intolerant of the other though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1430902024' post='2765645'] Agreed. There is a place for both (real) science and real world experience. It is a shame that each side seems so scathing about and intolerant of the other though... [/quote] Exactly! But wait - are we in danger of seeing a concensus here? Careful now. Down with that sort of thing. Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) I disagree. Just because otherwise it's not Basschat Edited May 6, 2015 by Merton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Everyone's got ears and tonal goals are entirely subjective and down to preference. Everybody's hearing is actually unique and what someone will find harsh and middy others will find to be the tone they want. Stick your gear in the 'real world' and the engineering and science will explain why you are hearing what you are hearing. There's nothing wrong with picking up a pro, or anyone else for that matter, for making statements that are for all intense and purposes incorrect. I found the statement made to be very similar to someone arguing that you shouldn't learn theory because it'll stifle your creativity. What the likes of TKS, Barefaced, Roger Baer, Bill Fiztmaurice and Greenboy, to name a few, have done in the past few years is to make it more difficult for the major players to do what they did for a long time and just stick a driver in a cabinet and say x,y and z all based on spurious nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1430912691' post='2765814']What the likes of TKS, Barefaced, Roger Baer, Bill Fiztmaurice and Greenboy, to name a few, have done in the past few years is to make it more difficult for the major players to do what they did for a long time and just stick a driver in a cabinet and say x,y and z all based on spurious nonsense. [/quote] Exactly. They have also raised awareness among bass players (or at least the ones who use online forums) that we don't have to simply put up with what the big amplification companies have been foisting on us for decades. I think that's a good thing - but some people don't like to have their preconceptions challenged... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1430912691' post='2765814'] There's nothing wrong with picking up a pro, or anyone else for that matter, for making statements that are for all intense and purposes incorrect. I found the statement made to be very similar to someone arguing that you shouldn't learn theory because it'll stifle your creativity. [/quote] So what, in your opinion, did that particular pro say that was incorrect? [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1430912691' post='2765814'] What the likes of TKS, Barefaced, Roger Baer, Bill Fiztmaurice and Greenboy, to name a few, have done in the past few years is to make it more difficult for the major players to do what they did for a long time and just stick a driver in a cabinet and say x,y and z all based on spurious nonsense. [/quote] The people who have actually made a difference to the gear we are using are the ones who design and make the modern drive units and power amps. The names you have quoted are all niche market box stuffers using web forums to flog their wares. They are doing exactly what the major players are doing - only on a much smaller scale. Edited May 6, 2015 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1430913167' post='2765823'] some people don't like to have their preconceptions challenged... [/quote]+1. When it's pointed out that the emperor is stark naked there is a faction who will insist that those who believe that to be true simply have not properly trained their eyes. As for the admirable auditory skills of various musicians, producers and engineers, most do the best they can with the tools that are at their disposal. Some do very well operating within that constraint. OTOH others come to the realization that sometimes what's required is a better tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1430915629' post='2765859'] The people who have actually made a difference to the gear we are using are the ones who design and make the modern drive units and power amps. The names you have quoted are all niche market box stuffers using web forums to flog their wares. They are doing exactly what the major players are doing - only on a much smaller scale. [/quote] Agreed about the manufacturers of drivers and amps, but I still think that some of the smaller "boutique" cabinet makers ( I think "box stuffers" might be a bit harsh! ) have caused many of us to rethink our concept of cabinet size, weight and design. That, in turn, has created a demand that some of the larger manufacturers have tried to exploit. None of this is a bad thing IMO. Edited May 6, 2015 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1430917685' post='2765904'] ...OTOH others come to the realization that sometimes what's required is a better tool. [/quote] +1 ...and there are certainly some tools posting in this thread. Edited May 6, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='vailbass' timestamp='1430833599' post='2764994'] ....all the modern 10" cabs I've tried have a hollow, scooped mid, indistinct response. In contrast, the jbl and EV 15's have wonderful, punchy and clear all- around bass guitar response. [/quote] Not doubting your experiences for a second - but just out of interest, which "modern 10" cabs" have you tried? I'm guessing that TKS (Swedish) and Barefaced (British) were not on that list? I think you might be pleasantly surprised if you tried some of their offerings (and others, of course). That said, the old JBLs and EVs are awesome Especially if you have roadies to cart them about for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1430917879' post='2765909'] +1 ...and there are certainly some tools posting in this thread. [/quote] Possibly a bit harsh. But it is certainly true that some people are better at explaining their position politely than others! Still, being impolite or otherwise doesn't necessarily make them incorrect when referring to their own experiences. Back to the ears thing again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1430915629' post='2765859'] So what, in your opinion, did that particular pro say that was incorrect? [/quote] So does high cone excursion result in poor transient response, as implied by the 'pro' and said not to be the case by Alex Claber and Bill Fitzmaurice. Which is correct? [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1430915629' post='2765859'] The people who have actually made a difference to the gear we are using are the ones who design and make the modern drive units and power amps. The names you have quoted are all niche market box stuffers using web forums to flog their wares. They are doing exactly what the major players are doing - only on a much smaller scale. [/quote] The niche players are definitely driving the major players into different attitudes, and in that niche I'd include Vanderkley, Bergantino etc. The internet and forums such as this and Talkbass have made people aware of these niche players. By major players I'm talking about the companies that are in pretty much every music store you go in. Back when I started playing 5years ago what they had to offer, maybe bar MarkBass, was frankly quite poor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1430918286' post='2765918'] But it is certainly true that some people are better at explaining their position politely than others! [/quote] Do you mean you're better at politely explaining your position than I am..? Yes, I'd agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1430919164' post='2765933'] Do you mean you're better at politely explaining your position than I am..? Yes, I'd agree with that. [/quote] Not sure I'd include myself in that category either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) [quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1430862712' post='2765463'] OK now I understand and thanks for explaining. [b]Although I [i]will[/i] say that it doesn't make any sense to dismiss professional acoustic/electrical/mechanical engineering in favour of the ears of good players. And there are lots of successful and talented musicians, singers and song-writers who have a poor understanding of the basics of acoustics. Some of them don't really care about things like tone, and that's fair enough. Each to their own. [/b] I would far rather base my initial selection of bass guitar cabs on their technical specifications. That way you can eliminate those that are obvious poor performers and then move on to using your ears, but - I would never buy a cab based solely on listening to it. It is so easy to be fooled depending on a variety of factors. But for those who don't understand the technical side (or have no interest in learning or simply lack the aptitude) then listening to the advice of those who have the technical knowledge is surely just sensible. Isn't it? Frank. [/quote] Ok...but you are talking about a band of musos's...the poster was/is a guy who gets hired by the very best..and being in that league brings along other top rated experts in their field to work with. The endorsement is at the top level of the industry... you don't to 1st call status. - you are talking world class - if you aren't truly sorted playing wise or sound wise. The standard is too high and there is a lot of competition.. I don't think you are comparing apples with applles, tbh, IMO. Edited May 6, 2015 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1430900443' post='2765631'] One of the things that marks out a professional musician, in my experience, is the quality of the sound they produce. I don't care what the instrument is. A pro will pick up a trumpet and get a sound out of it that your average amateur just cannot do - even with the same instrument. As bass players, we probably notice this characteristic more with drummers, but it applies to all musicians - from violinists to pianists. So, when a pro bass player comes along and offers an opinion that is not necessarily mainstream (although perfectly valid IMO), arguing with him on the basis of 'transient response' and 'high Le drivers' is slightly missing the point. And remember, there's science and there's pseudo science. [/quote] Further to this... these players will have a nuance and understanding of the note and how to express it.. they may be able to play one note many many ways whereas most of us have one form of attack and that is about it... there is not a dynamic in the note as we/the player just don't hear it and that is fine and ok but it does rather define the limit of what we can 'hear' and therefore how 'good' ours ears actually are, IMO. It also pretty much will limit what we can play as we can't hear the subtle difference..it is almost Blah to us. ..... So, if someone reads a manual on how to interpret the science, and is convinced they understand, and then the cab sounds not very good.. are we to be convinced because the science said they did the right things..?? The reason I'll go with the pro sound engr employed by the best that money can buy working with same level of musician is because you have the best in the industry endorsing their talent.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1430918134' post='2765914'] Not doubting your experiences for a second - but just out of interest, which "modern 10" cabs" have you tried? I'm guessing that TKS (Swedish) and Barefaced (British) were not on that list? ............. [/quote] We wont know until top class people start using them... and shops start stocking them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 10", 12", 15" or 5" ? My cab of choice was an Ampeg B115E for many years. Relatively light and easy to handle. A warm even response over the bass spectrum. Other cab's were tried, 210's, other 15's, but I always returned to the Ampeg 15". Now that I've stopped gigging and have downsized for just jamming along with my fellow retirees I find myself preferring Phil Jones 5". With my hearing impaired above 2-3kHz, I'm pretty sure it's the almost hi-fi quality of the Briefcase, (recently bought on BC), I need to fully enjoy my noodling. So as our hearing changes with age/exposure maybe our preference will change, as mine certainly has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1430918386' post='2765920'] So does high cone excursion result in poor transient response, as implied by the 'pro' and said not to be the case by Alex Claber and Bill Fitzmaurice. Which is correct? [/quote]Note that I said that transient response isn't affected by excursion but by voice coil inductance. Some high excursion drivers also have high inductance voice coils. One could use a high excursion driver, notice that transient response was affected, and therefore conclude that it was the excursion that caused the loss of transient response. With an adequate engineering knowledge base one would not make that error. Also note that I said that musical instrument drivers don't have high inductance. Many PA drivers do. That's not an issue if the crossover from the woofer to the midrange driver occurs at a frequency low enough where the high inductance of the woofer has no effect. Well designed PA cabs, or bass cabs that use high inductance PA woofers and midrange drivers, do just that. But not all PA cabs or bass cabs that employ PA woofers are well designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1430938763' post='2766200'] We wont know until top class people start using them... and shops start stocking them. [/quote] Like Neil Murray perhaps, and with respect to shops, Bass Gear (TKS) and the Great British Bass Lounge (Barefaced) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 [quote name='Merton' timestamp='1430945342' post='2766282'] Like Neil Murray perhaps [/quote] Oh? What does he use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverinebass Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1430980306' post='2766412'] Oh? What does he use? [/quote] Markbass, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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