10's, 12's or 15's?

[Skybone]

So, I'm joining a new band, nothing too ambitious thankfully, just for a bit of fun.

Anyway, I have a bass, but no amp. Not a major problem as I have just bought myself a Zoom B3, so I could plug in to a PA or bass amp for rehearsals/gigs etc. But it's got me thinking about maybe purchasing an amp of some description at some point in time, and then use the B3 as a pedal board rather than as an amp sim.

I've owned bass amps before, but haven't had one for quite a number of years, and the technology has moved on since then (hopefully the sound has as well!). Last amp I had was a 100w Ampeg SVT15T combo with a 15" speaker. When the stars aligned, it sounded fabulous, a lot of the time, it sounded OK, the rest of the time, it was awful. Prior to that, I'd had my share of the bad, the ugly and the down-right dreadful amps on an incredibly limited budget. In the past, I have tended towards combo amps with a 15" speaker, great for rock & metal low end, not that great on the higher range. On my guitar amp(s), i've mainly used 12" speakers, which cover pretty much all sonic bases I was after.

So, back on topic. What is the general consensus of speaker configurations does the BC crowd like and why?

Seen a few Ashdown combo's with 12" speakers recently that look good, and would hopefully be "luggable". Something like a 2x10 combo would "move a bit more air" and still be manageable, but would it fit the sonic requirement? I did have a crazy idea of getting a second hand bass cab and using my valve guitar amp head, but it's more stuff to lug about.

The music is rock-y/punk-y/etc, the bass is a RickenFaker, sound I'm hoping for is tight & punchy, but with a good spectrum of lows/mids/highs (though whether my playing is still tight & punchy is another matter completely! ).

[discreet]

The main thing is that cone size has no bearing on frequency response:

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm"]http://barefacedbass...cy-response.htm[/url]

So essentially (in theory) larger drivers don't necessarily sound 'bassier', nor do smaller ones give you more 'top end'.

Edited February 3, 2015 by discreet

[Bradwell]

Don't get too hung up on what size the speakers are. Figure out your other requirements first - weight, power handling, volume, budget.

A 210 will have greater surface area than a 112, but moving air also depends on cone excursion. It all comes down to cab/cone design so there's no straight set of rules to say a bigger cone gives you lower frequency response.

I'd also focus on getting gear with the right tone to fit with your bass and style of playing, low end rumble is only a small part of that.

Guitar amps and bass amps are completely different in terms of requirements so I wouldn't go hooking up the guitar amp to a S/H cabinet, at best it won't sound particularly good, at worst you could damage the amp

[Conan]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1422971739' post='2678985']So essentially (in theory) larger drivers don't necessarily sound 'bassier', nor do smaller ones give you more 'top end'.
[/quote]

True. But despite the "science", many bassists still insist that they can hear a difference when changing cone sizes!

In most cases, it will not be a fair test. So they might have gone from, say, and old Peavey 1x15 to a much newer Ashdown 4x10. Any perceived difference in tone is likely to be as much down to the construction and size of the box as it is to the size of the speakers inside it. Also, the speakers will be from different manufacturers with different tolerances and quality levels... etc.

I used to own a typical Trace Elliot stack during the 80s and 90s. In my experience, the 4x10 had less top end than the 1x15, and possibly more bass response!! Figure that one out!

The best advice is to get the best cabinet(s) you can afford - regardless of the size of the speakers in it/them. How old are you? How big/strong are you? How much do you like humping heavy gear about? What is your budget? These are all far more important considerations than speaker size and configuration.

But that is not what some people want to hear...

Edited February 3, 2015 by Conan

[Bradwell]

Also worth noting that guitarists get massively hung up on 12" speakers - A sort of institutional insanity based on the cult of Marshall stacks. I've had some great electric guitar sounds from 8" speakers.

Never played one but a Phil Jones Briefcase uses 2x 5" speakers. My Dad's Minimark has 2x 6" speakers and that's more than enough for home practice and he quite likes using it for his jazz gigs. They might not be a fit for rock/punk/metal but can certainly produce useable low end.

[Lozz196]

Thing is, although speaker sizes aren`t meant to have any kind of different sound, every single 1x15 I`ve used has been bassier than the 210 in the same range, and also had less highs. And the 410s have always had the best of both worlds - again in the same range of course. Makes me think that although the speakers themselves don`t have different sounds, the manufacturers make the cabs to have specific sounds.

That said, I`ve found that a 212 is a good mixture of all, plenty enough lows and highs, and enough volume/depth of sound to cope with most gigs, and not too heavy/bulky.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Lozz196

[Jazzjames]

Go and try a few things and see for yourself what you think. I personally use Aguilar DB112 cabs and one on its own if often plenty loud enough for most gigs. I have two but only really use both if I'm playing outdoors or with a large band. I've owned a SWR 4x10 and whilst it did sound great, was too big and heavy, and the two 12" cabs I have now are (together) definitely louder and go lower, whilst being easier to transport.

It's a lot to do with size of box that the speaker is in, like the old Gallien Krueger combos that double bassists often use - whilst it's a 12" speaker, it's in a shallow small metal box. Not in the same league as my Db112, but the DB112 is double the size.

If you're looking for a good combo to play rehearsals and gigs with that's quite easy to move about I'd suggest a Markbass 12" combo. I've always thought they sounded big and musical for their size when I've heard them or used them on a gig. Quite cheap also, especially second hand.

I've never found a 2x10 that can gig on its own without ragging it.

http://www.soundsliveshop.com/p/MarkBass_Mini_CMD_121P_Bass_Combo_Amplifier/MB-MINI-CMD-121P?CAWELAID=1830891859&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=Cj0KEQiAgMKmBRDMjo_F9OfUubABEiQAp8Ky1yWsjN3bS3wN3YkPm_51McdV1kSzIXv-_gX0LjXlCikaAmVW8P8HAQ

[Conan]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1422974414' post='2679026']
Makes me think that the manufacturers make the cabs to have specific sounds.
[/quote]

Indeed

[Conan]

[quote name='Jazzjames' timestamp='1422975919' post='2679046']
I personally use Aguilar DB112 cabs and one on its own is often plenty loud enough for most gigs.

I've never found a 2x10 that can gig on its own without ragging it.
[/quote]

Interesting. You find a single 1x12 loud enough to gig, but not a 2x10?

To be fair, the Aggies are excellent cabs - but what were the 210s that you used? I'd have thought that the 210s would be louder (assuming similar spec levels).

[ezbass]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1422974414' post='2679026']
Makes me think that although the speakers themselves don`t have different sounds, the manufacturers make the cabs to have specific sounds.
[/quote]Very much so, my Ashdown 2x10 cabs were decidedly mid scooped, whilst my Schroeder 2x12 had a push in the lower mids. Decide on the size/weight of cab you require, check this against your budget and then let your ears make the decision.

[chris_b]

What is your budget?

I too hear differences between 10's, 12's and 15's. I don't care if that is coming from the speaker, the cab or where ever, it's there and is part of what makes my mind up when I'm listening to cabs.

I prefer 12's but if Punk is your thing, maybe 10's is the way to go.

The only 112 I'd gig with is a Barefaced cab. Apart from Barefaced, I'd always run 2 112 cabs and I'd also ran 2 210's when I had them. 2 cabs just sounds so much better than 1.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1422972614' post='2678999']
True. But despite the "science", many bassists still insist that they can hear a difference when changing cone sizes!

[/quote]

That is probably because they can... I'd be amazed if I couldn't tell the difference between a 10" and 15"

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1422971739' post='2678985']
The main thing is that cone size has no bearing on frequency response:

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm"]http://barefacedbass...cy-response.htm[/url]

So essentially (in theory) larger drivers don't necessarily sound 'bassier', nor do smaller ones give you more 'top end'.
[/quote]


I'm not sure about this. Every time I have had, or experienced, a 15" speaker, it sounds the "bassiest" to me. I at least have a perception that you get low stuff from those big ass speakers.

I would like to do an A/B test with a Barefaced Compact and Super Compact. I would put my money on the larger speaker sounding deeper.

[Conan]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1422979292' post='2679092']
I would like to do an A/B test with a Barefaced Compact and Super Compact. I would put my money on the larger speaker sounding deeper.
[/quote]

Some people who have owned both (I've only had an original Compact) say that the new Super Compact actually has [b][i]more[/i][/b] bottom end...

From the BF site:
[b] [i]"Why this rather than the much revered Compact?[/i][/b]

[i]The treble is brighter and more audible around the room, the midrange has more punch and also has better dispersion, the lows are just as big but better controlled and less boomy"[/i]

Edited February 3, 2015 by Conan

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1422982007' post='2679134']
People who have owned both (I've only had an original Compact) say that the new Super Compact actually has [b][i]more[/i][/b] bottom end...
[/quote]

But that wouldn't be any sort of way to determine what the speaker size was anyway..and if anyone use frequency to tell,- as in which chassis went lower- they be barking up the wrong tree, IMO.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1422972614' post='2678999']
True. But despite the "science", many bassists still insist that they can hear a difference when changing cone sizes!
[/quote]To a great extent that's placebo effect. If you think that you'll hear a difference you will. No one is immune to it.
The main difference that is really audible is the result of the one difference that will always be determined by driver size, and that's off-axis response. Even that will be different when you use two or more identical drivers compared to just one, or for that matter two compared to four, not to mention two placed vertically versus two placed horizontally. The value of knowing the science is that you can predict the outcome with any of the myriad of possible permutations with a very high degree of accuracy.

[discreet]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1422979292' post='2679092']
I'm not sure about this. Every time I have had, or experienced, a 15" speaker, it sounds the "bassiest" to me. I at least have a perception that you get low stuff from those big ass speakers. I would like to do an A/B test with a Barefaced Compact and Super Compact. I would put my money on the larger speaker sounding deeper.
[/quote]

You might perceive it to be so, but as Bill says that would be the placebo effect.

[stingrayPete1977]

One thing I always think about posting then forget to is this, when the science bods get involved here with the "placebo effect" etc what I wonder is if you were blindfolded and only allowed to adjust the EQ by feel and to taste tone wise maybe the actual drivers could produce the whole sonic spectrum hence the science being correct yet if I set say my Shuttle 6.0 head up to my preferred tone then swapped the cabs only would the 12" then be deeper than the 10" and that deeper than the 8" etc etc? I think it would and that is where I think the confusion kicks in in these topics and like I said I have thought about it before then forgot to ask everytime! Now the issue is what does it matter providing you have enough of what you require? My Shuttlemax9.2 head may or may not produce 900watts and the debate will never really be settled but if I only need 350 watts worst case scenario does it matter if its only putting out a real world 750? same goes for treble and bass range, and overall volume produced by the cab arrangement you decide on IMO. I think that makes some sense but I am rambling a bit, Lol.

[Marvin]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1422988146' post='2679223']
.... but I am rambling a bit, Lol.
[/quote]

Yep

[Guest monsterthompson]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1422982405' post='2679139']
To a great extent that's placebo effect. If you think that you'll hear a difference you will. No one is immune to it.
The main difference that is really audible is the result of the one difference that will always be determined by driver size, and that's off-axis response. Even that will be different when you use two or more identical drivers compared to just one, or for that matter two compared to four, not to mention two placed vertically versus two placed horizontally. The value of knowing the science is that you can predict the outcome with any of the myriad of possible permutations with a very high degree of accuracy.
[/quote]
i'd suspect a bigger driver often comes in a bigger enclosure, which alters the output you hear. the G3 Barefaced SC and SM use the same driver, yet the SC is in a bigger box and it goes lower and louder (based on Alex's claims and my observations as an owner of each cab). perhaps that is part of what people hear and attribute to the driver size.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='monsterthompson' timestamp='1422990800' post='2679268']
i'd suspect a bigger driver often comes in a bigger enclosure, which alters the output you hear. the G3 Barefaced SC and SM use the same driver, yet the SC is in a bigger box and it goes lower and louder (based on Alex's claims and my observations as an owner of each cab). perhaps that is part of what people hear and attribute to the driver size.
[/quote]The enclosure is just as, if not more, responsible for the low frequency extension and output than the driver. But where the driver itself is concerned there are over a dozen specs that determine both how low and how loud it will go. Cone size is not one of them.

[Guest monsterthompson]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1422992830' post='2679299']
The enclosure is just as, if not more, responsible for the low frequency extension and output than the driver. But where the driver itself is concerned there are over a dozen specs that determine both how low and how loud it will go. Cone size is not one of them.
[/quote]
in bass guitar terms, it sounds like the driver is like a string and the enclosure is like the body. a type of string (flat, round, hex core, steel, etc.) will have a characteristic, but the body will be more influential on the overall tone.

[interpol52]

I've been using a single Bergantino HD112 recently and it sounds enormous. I have always used 4x10 cabs and sometimes a 1x15. I can't imagine what two of these bad boys together would sound like cranked!!

[discreet]

[quote name='interpol52' timestamp='1422997782' post='2679430']
I've been using a single Bergantino HD112 recently and it sounds enormous... I can't imagine what two of these bad boys together would sound like cranked!!
[/quote]

Two 1X12 cabs are where it's at, IMO. Modular, portable, can be cranked without issue, full-range capable... what's not to like?

[Jazzjames]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1422976168' post='2679051']
Interesting. You find a single 1x12 loud enough to gig, but not a 2x10?

To be fair, the Aggies are excellent cabs - but what were the 210s that you used? I'd have thought that the 210s would be louder (assuming similar spec levels).
[/quote]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]
Yeah I find the Aguilar DB112 loud enough to gig with at medium volume, but not all 12s will be the same, the DB112 is in a big box! If was doing a rock gig, I'd bring both cabs, but that's only so I can have the amp ticking over, not pushing so much! These DB cabs really are solid things.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]
I've used Ashdown's 2x10 Evo combo, a fair few times, which was pretty crap (for me) to be honest, but I'd blame that on the head as much as the cab. It sounded vague, but you see them about so there must be people that like them. I had a SWR goliath 2x10 and it sounded lovely but again didn't give what I needed with regard to depth when I needed it to. I have played though a TC 2x10 combo that was just about loud enough for the gig I was doing which was in a small upstairs club, but man did it suck tonewise. Just totally sucked. Again, that's probably me disagreeing with the head as much as the cab.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]
I owned for many years a Genz benz shuttle 3.0-10t with 10t extension cab. so 2x 1x10 mini stack. It did its best to cope with the gigs I did with it, and for the most part I loved it, but it still wasn't quite loud enough for some of the gigs I did with it. Was a lovely little thing though. Great when I was without car in London playing mainly jazz, but in the real world, didn’t quite cut the mustard. Not a 2x10 I realise, but it did have 2 10" speakers![/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]
I haven't played many of the more modern more expensive cab manufacturers' 2x10s, apart from I had a little blast on a Bergantino 2x10 at a jam one time, no idea which model line it was, it was quite light(?), and it sounded really nice and even, if a bit sterile, but I wasn't using my amp, and we were playing quietly so couldn't get much of a feel for it.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]
I A/B'd the DB112 against a DB210 in the shop that I bought it from, and thought that the DB112 was bigger sounding. And I cranked them up to hear what they would be like at gig-ish levels, and the DB112 punched more to me. That will get you heard. Not to say I didn’t like the DB210, I thought it sounded great, but I would have to pair it with a DB115, and I ain’t carrying those things around with me![/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][size=3]
I'm sure there are plenty of 2x10s that are louder and bassier than some 1x12s but above are my personal experiences, and very subjective, seeing as these experiences are over a number of years in many different rooms with different bands. Get to a big shop like the Bass Gallery in Camden and try as many things as possible.[/size][/font][/color]




[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1423000952' post='2679510']
Two 1X12 cabs are where it's at, IMO. Modular, portable, can be cranked without issue, full-range capable... what's not to like?
[/quote]

This is spot on^