What makes someone a 'pro'?

[JTUK]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1423075967' post='2680431']
Do you apply this same 'logic' to other professions and/or vocations, or solely musicians..? A professional plumber..? A professional footballer..? A professional vicar..? I understand the differentiation you're aiming at, but am hard pressed to come up wit an adequate word for this limited understanding of the term. I'll keep looking, but meanwhile, do others seem the same to you..?
No malice intended; simply curious.
[/quote]


You accept that musicians are pro simply for taking money for their services...and I agree that that is one definition, just not the most
significant, IMO...
I'd put more significance in excelling at the craft...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423077914' post='2680476']
You accept that musicians are pro simply for taking money for their services...and I agree that that is one definition, just not the most
significant, IMO...
I'd put more significance in excelling at the craft...
[/quote]

... and this for any and all professions, presumably..?

[Bassassin]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423077914' post='2680476']
You accept that musicians are pro simply for taking money for their services...and I agree that that is one definition, just not the most
significant, IMO...
I'd put more significance in excelling at the craft...
[/quote]
The word you're searching for is "virtuoso".

I am not a virtuoso but for a couple of years or so in the mid/late 90s my primary source of income was the two bands I played in, & very busy weekends of gigging.

I would have described myself as "semi-pro" at the time.

Jon.

[chriswareham]

What makes someone a pro?

Normally they've a drug habit to pay for, or they're pressured into it by an abusive partner.

We are talking about prostitutes aren't we?

[TimR]

There are people with degrees in engineering who are engineers by proffesion. It's their day job, they make all their money from it. But they don't have the proffessional qualification that a CEng does.

This would probably go for all the craftsmen builders, plumbers, electricians. They do it as their main job but they're not technically proffesionals.

They still hold the proffesional qualification when they are retired.

There are poffesional qualifications for a musician. Eg DipABRSM, LRSM, and FRSM.

Edited February 4, 2015 by TimR

[ambient]

A professional musician nowadays would make their living from having a portfolio of skills and employment, gigging, teaching, composing/writing, media/journalism, sessions.

The above is from the musicians union.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1423083516' post='2680605']
There are people with degrees in engineering who are engineers by proffesion. It's their day job, they make all their money from it. But they don't have the proffessional qualification that a CEng does.


[/quote]

There are people who would prefer to call them Technicians. Although they are usually the ones with the qualifications.

Edited February 4, 2015 by BILL POSTERS

[TimR]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1423089397' post='2680746']


There are people who would prefer to call them Technicians. Although they are usually the ones with the qualifications.
[/quote]

A degree in engineering gets you a BEng. That make you an engineer not a technician.

You can have a degree in accountancy and be an accountant but until you get chartered status you're not considered a proffesional.

I think there's a list of proffesional people who can sign passports. Musicians aren't on it

[Woodinblack]

I actually don't understand a definition of Professional musician that isn't 'someone who makes their money from being a musician'. I wouldn't necessarily extend it to, say, someone hiring PA equipment, but yes, a music teacher would count.

But then language seems a bit mutable these days when people use the word 'literally' to mean 'not literally'

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1423089690' post='2680755']
A degree in engineering gets you a BEng. That make you an engineer not a technician.

[color=#800080]Engineer, technician and professional. They are not mutually exclusive.[/color]

You can have a degree in accountancy and be an accountant but until you get chartered status you're not considered a proffesional.

[color=#800080]By whom..?[/color]

I think there's a list of proffesional people who can sign passports. Musicians aren't on it

[color=#800080]The signing for passports is not given because of their professional status, but other criteria. By coincidence, some signataires are professionals.[/color]

[color=#800080](All imo...)[/color]

[/quote]

[ambient]

You only have to look at someone like Laurence Cottle, there's no disputing that he's a pro, but he writes music for production companies/libraries, arranges for his own band and others (I think he did some arrangement work for the new Gavin Harrison album), records and teaches and is an in-demand side man.

[blue]

I think the term pro can mean a lot of different things.

Some say if you only play on weekends your a hobbyist, I don't subscribe to that definition. Just because for the most part you only play weekends does not make it a hobby. It's not like building model cars, golf,or fishing.I don't think ,as a rule you come home with money from any of those 3 things. With a hobby you generally not providing a service.

I was able to pay my condo association fee and utilities from monies I earned from last weekends gigs. Does that make me a pro? I don't know, to me it means I was able to pay my condo association fee and utilities from monies I earned from last weekends gigs.

Here's something to think about. A group of musicians see you a gig and admire your performance and several say; [i]"Wow! good band and did you watch and hear their bass player, that guy is a real Pro."[/i]

Maybe that's a Pro, when that is how your peers recognize you.

Blue

Edited February 5, 2015 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1423092880' post='2680825']
You only have to look at someone like Laurence Cottle, there's no disputing that he's a pro, but he writes music for production companies/libraries, arranges for his own band and others (I think he did some arrangement work for the new Gavin Harrison album), records and teaches and is an in-demand side man.
[/quote]

I would say he represent a level of being a "Pro". There are other layers and levels on how we use the term.

Blue

[ambient]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1423094548' post='2680831']
I would say he represent a level of being a "Pro". There are other layers and levels on how we use the term.

Blue
[/quote]

I'd guess he's pretty near the top level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Cottle

[blue]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1423094730' post='2680833']
I'd guess he's pretty near the top level.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Cottle"]http://en.wikipedia....Laurence_Cottle[/url]
[/quote]

Agreed, however you could also say the bar band or pub guys that go out on Friday, Saturday and Sunday arrive at the bar or pub conduct themselves like experts provide a service and come home with respectable compensation would also be at the top level.

Blue

[JamPlay]

interesting thread here....the artistry surrounding a professional musican relates to a life choice...the artist lives a life repleate with creativity, production, manifestation, and surrounding oneself with artistic endeavors..it's a commitment..it's a lifestyle...and it's a choice....James Taylor has a beautiful lyric, "the secret of life is enjoying the passage of time, anyone can do it"...if in fact you are fortunate enough to make music your vocation, where it in fact can pay the bills, afford you the lifestyle which within your means you can sustain, then by most accounts you can be succesful and enjoy your lifes choice..however, there is a deeper and more significant choice at hand, and that's to be true to yourself..if indeed you need art and music in your life, then you must have it, or you will be void of satisfaction....the "high" associated with music making is a great one, and should be sought after if you indeed want it...This choice involves commitment to craft, understanding your needs and the needs of your loved ones. An artists life can be selfish, if in fact you don't pay attention to your family around you, and take a step back every now and again...you are the product of your environment and this means listening to and observing your obligations to those that support your life and career choice. Having been married for 28 years I can tell you that my wifes support enables me to succeed and furthers my commitment to realizing that there is in fact more to life than strictly playing music...take a look inside, take a look around you...enjoy the gifts that music brings, yet don't sacrifice all that is circling your world, the folks that help your trip be so wonderful.. give someone a hug, play a tacet, let someone else talk...this might just in fact be the most powerful thing you can do to help sustain a healthy existence both on and off the bandstand...cheers, and let the groove play on!!

[TimR]

Dad,

The point I was making is, within the world of business, just because you do something as a job doesn't make you a proffesional. It may fit the broad dictionary definition but I don't think that's relevant.

To be a proffesional you have to have an additional proffesional qualification rather than just do something for a living.

Often you see adverts for flats to rent "Seeking Proffesionals". I'm guessing they're not looking for proffesional refuse collectors.

Edited February 5, 2015 by TimR

[lowdown]

I have been a full time musician for over 40 rears.
Although I went to music collage and have picked up various music
related qualifications, I have never been asked to produce these
for work (although if you teach in schools as well, it will possibly be needed).
Sometimes in the Classical world, to gain an audition spot
they will ask where you trained and what you achieved.

When my accountant does my tax returns and files under Musician
he don't ask for my qualifications neither does the tax man.

Professional*

[Conan]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1423124947' post='2680945']
just because you do something as a job doesn't make you a proffesional.

Often you see adverts for flats to rent "Seeking Proffesionals". I'm guessing they're not looking for proffesional refuse collectors.
[/quote]

Bloody semantics again!

We all know what we mean, and what others mean - but we still find things to argue about!

[TimR]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1423132269' post='2681066']


Bloody semantics again!

We all know what we mean, and what others mean - but we still find things to argue about!
[/quote]

There's no argument. We don't all know what we mean. We all have different definitions in addition to the dictionary. There is no professional body for musicians. Just like there is no professional body for plumbers.

You are either a plumber or a musician. The term professional is a misnomer.

[Conan]

So being a musician is not a "profession"?

I'm a teacher and a musician. Does that make me a professional musician?

[tinyd]

It seems like the question has a lot of answers. I'm not for a second dismissing people who make a living through music in a variety of ways, but when I think "pro musician" I think of someone who is good enough to just turn up and play to a high standard, ideally across a variety of genres. This includes session musicians but I think also covers some people that I've seen in function/pub bands. However, it excludes a lot of musicians who are in well-known bands and who make a decent living, so I've no doubt that people will disagree with my version of "pro".

Another definition that I quite like is "someone who is a lot better than I am"

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1423124947' post='2680945']
Dad...
[/quote]

In my view, language is determined, not by dictionaries, but by usage. You are free, of course, to keep and use your more narrow version; meanwhile, I'll continue to understand, depending on context, any of the definitions accepted in modern parlance. Most dictionaries propose something like...

[color=#800080]adjective[/color]
[color=#800080]1. [/color][color=#800080]following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain:[/color]
[color=#800080]a professional builder.[/color]
[color=#800080]2. [/color][color=#800080]of, relating to, or connected with a profession :[/color]
[color=#800080]professional studies.[/color]
[color=#800080]3. [/color][color=#800080]appropriate to a profession :[/color]
[color=#800080]professional objectivity.[/color]
[color=#800080]4. [/color][color=#800080]engaged in one of the learned professions :[/color]
[color=#800080]A lawyer is a professional person.[/color]
[color=#800080]5. [/color][color=#800080]following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime:[/color]
[color=#800080]a professional golfer.[/color]
[color=#800080]6. [/color][color=#800080]making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”.[/color]
[color=#800080]7. [/color][color=#800080]undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain:[/color]
[color=#800080]professional baseball.[/color]

[color=#800080]noun[/color]
[color=#800080]10. [/color][color=#800080]a person who belongs to one of the professions, especially one of the learned professions.[/color]
[color=#800080]11. [/color][color=#800080]a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs:[/color]
[color=#800080]a golf professional.[/color]
[color=#800080]12. [/color][color=#800080]an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.[/color]
[color=#800080]13. [/color][color=#800080]a person who is expert at his or her work:[/color]
[color=#800080]You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.[/color]

... which makes sense to me. Others may have other opinions; that's fine. I also think it futile to try to find a 'one size fits all' all-encompassing word, when the subject is so varied. That's why there are varying definitions. The world is thus.

[Conan]

My cricket club has had a number of professionals over the years. They get paid to play cricket. They get referred to as "pros" or "professionals". Yet they do not belong to any professional body...

[TimR]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1423139454' post='2681223']
My cricket club has had a number of professionals over the years. They get paid to play cricket. They get referred to as "pros" or "professionals". Yet they do not belong to any professional body...
[/quote]

Quite. As Dad says. What the dictionary says, what we use in defferent contexts, and what the law says are all very different points.

Which is why there is no real definition of what professional actually means.

Musician may be a profession, they may regard themselves as a professional, others may regard them as professional, the dictionary may describe them as professional. It's a funny term. In certain circles a musician who earns money from playing isn't regarded as a professional.

A school teach is a professional. There are recognised career paths and examinations to becoming a professional teacher.

Is the guy busking in the street, for coins into his hat, a professional? (London professional musicians busking with permission excepted)