Annoying Twit Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I've just run into something interesting. I don't do enough learning of songs all the way through. (I do a lot of improvisation during practice). I thought it might be a good idea to learn whole albums of The Beatles, starting at the beginning and working my way though. I was expecting the bass lines to be very easy right up to 1966. Rain looks more challenging. But, what's the first song on their first album ... 'I saw her standing there'. (Bassline copied, by McCartney's admission, from Chuck Berry's 'Talking 'bout you'). This should be easy. It's just a straight eight baseline. But, it's taking me time to get it down pat. I can come up with straight eight basslines that seem to be of similar complexity and play them easy (though I seem to have developed a bad habit of using syncopation and space all the time instead of just when appropriate). But, the actual ISHST baseline seems to make my fingers move in ways that they aren't used to. Or something. They seem to naturally want to play something different. I'm playing it in a root major scale position, so I don't think it's poor fingering choices that are causing it to be more difficult than I expected. I'm guessing that if I do a 'back to basics' thing and find that I have to work at some of it, that means that I really need to be working on my basics a bit more. Has anyone else experienced anything similar? Or does anyone have any comments/advice? Edited February 14, 2015 by Annoying Twit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) McCartney should never be underestimated. He not only played that ISHST bassline, he was singing at the same time. Learning McCartney is a good idea; didn't Billy Sheehan suggest all new bassists start by learning the whole of Sgt. Pepper? But the reason for learning other people basslines all the way through is because they make us play stuff we wouldn't normally play and so back to basics in some sense and so expand our abilities. Edited February 14, 2015 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 As said above, Macca played live bass with a live vocal when that was recorded - (Funnily enough exactly 51 years ago 3 days ago) There was no overdubbing then just live takes. Incidentally, on some of the outakes from that song which are floating about on youtube, there are subtle differences in the bass line which varies a bit from take to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I thought we were going to discuss parallel parking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1423937337' post='2690634'] I thought we were going to discuss parallel parking. [/quote] I know what you mean about that. I have a driveway, but the majority of the neighborhood don`t. The neighbours can get into spaces i could only dream about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Mr Twit, I can indeed confirm that ISHST has a finger-knotter of a bass line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thanks JapanAxe and everyone. With more practice it seems that it's the switching back and forward between strings that's the difficult bit for me. When the riff is played with a root of A, meaning I can use an open string, it becomes very easy. The similar sounding riff from the fast bit of America's 'Sister Golden Hair' sounds similar, but without as much jumping between strings as ISHST, it's much, much, easier. I'm practicing ISHST and I feel confidence that I'll be able to play it better in the future, and that these finger skills will help my playing in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 With reference to your more general point, I think there is an aspect of learning at play here that is rarely talked about. I think that every player moves forward and develops various aspects of their playing but, periodically, uses the new information to return to the start and to revisit the fundamentals. It is a looping thing. First you learn about rootn notes, then chord tones then, later on, say you develop new insights into intonation. You thn use these new found insights to revisit root notes and chord tones. Leter you get into Jazz ans start learning walking bass lines. In developing these walking bass lines, you revisit intontation and root notes and chord tones and so on, repeating this 'looping' throughout your career as a student. I am not suiggesting that you have to start again but that, as you develop, thinkgs you thought you had a handle on need to be reconsidered. I guess this is why, when we listen back to tapes we did years ago, every sucks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have a lot respect for PM, a general point about him is that apart from being a good musician, he spent many years learning his trade and developing his playing skills before walking into a recording studio. When he did record, he and the Beatles were ready to do it. Much of his playing would have been done with a plactrum too, trying this, may unlock some of his lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 I've found an interesting fault in my playing. When I try to play something reasonably fast, it seems that I'm not thinking clearly about some aspects of fingering, and 'just do it'. This can lead to some inconsistencies. E.g. for the ISHST baseline, when I played a note on the D string followed by the A string, I was sometimes straking(*) the notes with the same finger, and sometimes alternating them. The inconsistency led to difficulties. It's much easier now that I took some time to strake those notes, and now have a more consistent style on this. (*) I thought this was the term for playing notes on adjacent descending strings with the same finger but a quick google doesn't find anything. As an educator, I think there's quite some value in revisiting basics. It's possible to learn more advanced stuff (in general) while forgetting the basics. If you have learnt the basics properly, then revisiting them won't take time, you can just flash through. Anything which starts taking up time is something that it's important to re-learn. So, there's no real down-side to revisiting basics. For The Beatles, tunes such as Misery or Anna (Go To Him) are ultra-trivial to play. Except that I do too much playing of bits and pieces. Remembering a whole song in order is something that I'm now getting used to again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Straking = raking?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 [sup][sup][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][size=5]I'm afraid the Beatles basslines I learned from listening to the records oftened turn to be not what PM played though I was sure I'd heard it correctly after numerous playbacks often on headphones at various levels of volume to make sure I had.[/size][/size][/font][/sup][/sup] [sup][sup][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][size=5]With the muscle memory firmly in place I find it difficult to change them so, they fit and nobody except another bass player would probably tell the difference. [/size][/size][/font][/sup][/sup] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yes, I was thinking 'raking' but it was being retrieved as 'straking' for some reason. Such is my memory. Grandad - I realise that I'm risking doing the same thing. For a while I was playing the Day Tripper riff incorrectly. It seemed to sound OK, but it was pointed out what I was doing, the real line fit even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 [quote name='grandad' timestamp='1424086493' post='2692334'] [sup][sup][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][size=5]I'm afraid the Beatles basslines I learned from listening to the records oftened turn to be not what PM played though I was sure I'd heard it correctly after numerous playbacks often on headphones at various levels of volume to make sure I had.[/size][/size][/font][/sup][/sup] [sup][sup][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][size=5]With the muscle memory firmly in place I find it difficult to change them so, they fit and nobody except another bass player would probably tell the difference. [/size][/size][/font][/sup][/sup] [/quote] Please excuse my ignorance here; assuming your transcription isn't a million miles from what you heard on the records, what leads you to thinking it's not what PM played? Or do you mean it's not what he played when he was seen to play it live? Has anyone here tried the[url="http://www.biblio.com/book/beatles-bass-book-transcribed-joff-jones/d/533321188"] Beatles Bass book[/url] ? I've got one and find the score might be right, but there's no reason for bashing up and down the neck in the way the TABs would have you doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1424087125' post='2692356'] Please excuse my ignorance here; assuming your transcription isn't a million miles from what you heard on the records, what leads you to thinking it's not what PM played? Or do you mean it's not what he played when he was seen to play it live? Has anyone here tried the[url="http://www.biblio.com/book/beatles-bass-book-transcribed-joff-jones/d/533321188"] Beatles Bass book[/url] ? I've got one and find the score might be right, but there's no reason for bashing up and down the neck in the way the TABs would have you doing it. [/quote] Also: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/253800-beatles-bass-tabs"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/253800-beatles-bass-tabs[/url] And: [url="http://pcroppier.wix.com/bassicallytab#!books/cjg9"]http://pcroppier.wix.com/bassicallytab#!books/cjg9[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 i think Grandad means that what [u][b]He[/b][/u] ended up playing was not exactly the same as a Maccas original line. BTW did you know that George Harrison played a lot of the basslines too, but remained uncredited?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 [quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1424087657' post='2692367'] i think Grandad means that what [u][b]He[/b][/u] ended up playing was not exactly the same as a Maccas original line. BTW did you know that George Harrison played a lot of the basslines too, but remained uncredited?? [/quote] Well, Harrison maybe gets credit for about ten maximum. Are you saying there are more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) I think it was quite incredible how I was so sure I had them right. That bass drum often gets in the way! I've got a version of "SOMETHING" under my belt more or less but that's just for my own pleasure and not public consumption but I am conceited enough to prefer my version of "BACK IN THE USSR". Edited February 16, 2015 by grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1424094482' post='2692487'] Well, Harrison maybe gets credit for about ten maximum. Are you saying there are more? [/quote] I dont know exactly, although I believe he played on She said, she said after Macca walked out in a huff!. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/what-beatles-songs-did-george-harrison-play-bass-on.184632/ Edited February 16, 2015 by Hobbayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 [quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1424120301' post='2692942'] I dont know exactly, although I believe he played on She said, she said after Macca walked out in a huff!. [url="http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/what-beatles-songs-did-george-harrison-play-bass-on.184632/"]http://forums.steveh...bass-on.184632/[/url] [/quote] In [i]Many Tears From Now[/i] by Barry Miles, McCartney is quoted as saying Harrison may well have played bass on [i]She Said She Said[/i]. But what are the 'lots' where Harrison played bass? Honey Pie, Golden Slumbers/Carry that Weight, Birthday, Two of Us, are commonly said, Hey Jude, occasionally suggested but disputed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Not sure why you'd want to learn whole albums of the Beatles. This strikes me as quite limiting and quite time consuming... and everything has moved on by some considerable distance by now. Not saying you shouldn't have a nod to what they did back then, but apart from being in a Beatles trib band, I don't see what you'll really gain from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I play for enjoyment only. There are only eight main Beatles albums, and I'd be revising modern bass playing as it was developed. Edited February 20, 2015 by Annoying Twit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 [quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1424460129' post='2696646'] I play for enjoyment only. There are only eight main Beatles albums, and I'd be revising modern bass playing as it was developed. [/quote] Only a small snapshot of it though, I say. Fine if you are a fan of the Beatles but passing by a lot of other 'great' stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1424461225' post='2696660'] Only a small snapshot of it though, I say. Fine if you are a fan of the Beatles but passing by a lot of other 'great' stuff [/quote] A crucially important snapshot of it IMHO. And I wasn't planning on this being the last learning task of my life, or the only learning I'd be doing while I did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 [quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1424081266' post='2692235'] For The Beatles, tunes such as Misery or Anna (Go To Him) are ultra-trivial to play. Except that I do too much playing of bits and pieces. Remembering a whole song in order is something that I'm now getting used to again. [/quote] Isn't Bits and Pieces a Dave Clarke 5 number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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