Future generations musical ear worries

[Mook]

Just getting a gripe off my chest......I have been playing bass for many a year now and like to think that my ear is good enough that I can get a close enough approximation of a bassline by listening to it. But I find that now whenever I need to learn a bass part I reach straight for the dodgy youtube clips of people playing the lines. Even if their wrong it gives me the general impression of the line and saves me doing the hard work of working it out by ear.

It is way too easy now and I can totally understand why people use them or tabs to learn bass parts, but this has to come at a price when you are
learning to play.

I have, what limited musical ear I have, because I had no choice but to sit down and pick out a bassline bit by bit which could take weeks. It's a shame that no-one really needs to do this anymore and it can only limit future generations musical ears which is so vital, not just for learning songs but for improvisation and last minute dep work.

It's a shame.......that's all.

Thanks for listening

[discreet]

Whenever I have cause to learn something by ear then that's what I do. When I'm done I'll have a listen on YouTube to see how other people have fared and inevitably I'm pleased and amused because the vast majority will generally have made a hash of it.

My gripe is that no-one listens properly and are happy to say 'that'll do, it's close enough' or leave out important phrases or anything else that might be initially difficult to sort out. It's not just bass players, it's everyone. Which is why I'm not in a covers band.

There is no way I'd use a YouTube bass cover to learn a song - only a forensic assessment of the original will do. Thhpp!!

[EssentialTension]

It's just like when Leo Fender invented frets, it's much too easy now, no one trains their ear properly anymore. Terrible.

[discreet]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1424170072' post='2693313']
It's just like when Leo Fender invented frets, it's much too easy now, no one trains their ear properly anymore. Terrible.
[/quote]

And what about those keyboards? All the notes you need, right there in front of you! Mad!

[Nicko]

I dont think theres anything wrong with making life easier, but you have to use your ears to see whether the tab is right. When I took lessons a few years back we did quite a lot of work on ear training but for complex lines my aspirations exceed my talent. I'll generally get a copy of the tab and read it through loads of times as I listen to the track with a pen in my hand and make corrections as needed if its close enough. This works for most tracks and I can normally tell whether its a good or bad tab.

Playing covers shouldn't be about replicating the original precisely anyway, if someone says thats not how it goes they get "thats how it goes when I play it".

[discreet]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1424171989' post='2693337']
Playing covers shouldn't be about replicating the original precisely anyway, if someone says that's not how it goes they get, "that's how it goes when I play it".
[/quote]

Playing covers is precisely about replicating the original - that's what punters are expecting to hear and that's what you're being paid to do. 'We do our own version of it' is code for, 'We can't be bothered/aren't good enough to learn it properly'. As per my previous post - that's why I'm not in a covers band.

Edited February 17, 2015 by discreet

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mook' timestamp='1424169479' post='2693299']
Just getting a gripe off my chest......I have been playing bass for many a year now and like to think that my ear is good enough that I can get a close enough approximation of a bassline by listening to it. But I find that now whenever I need to learn a bass part I reach straight for the dodgy youtube clips of people playing the lines. Even if their wrong it gives me the general impression of the line and saves me doing the hard work of working it out by ear.

It is way too easy now and I can totally understand why people use them or tabs to learn bass parts, but this has to come at a price when you are
learning to play.

I have, what limited musical ear I have, because I had no choice but to sit down and pick out a bassline bit by bit which could take weeks. It's a shame that no-one really needs to do this anymore and it can only limit future generations musical ears which is so vital, not just for learning songs but for improvisation and last minute dep work.

It's a shame.......that's all.

Thanks for listening
[/quote]

Don't understand the problem.

Probably because there isn't one.

[discreet]

Oh boy, here we go! *Disappears into the shrubbery*

[Lw.]

Somebody must be sitting there & working out the tracks otherwise where are these youtube people getting it from? Or the people writing out the tab (though most tab I see online is wrong)?

I don't really see a problem - if young players are interested in learning music that's good enough for me, as they progress their listening ears will develop naturally.

[discreet]

*Suddenly appears from behind a hedge* ...I think tabs are of limited value. Who is writing them? Most likely someone who isn't listening properly in the first place. And how do you write down feel, phrasing and groove in a tab? Surely it's way easier to listen to the original? What is stopping you from hearing it? That's what the bass line [i]is[/i], right there..! *Sidesteps smartly behind a tree and is gone*

[Bilbo]

I don't really think it matters that much how you get to hear the stuff. If you play it, you are, by definition, hearing it. If you cannot hear it, you cannot play it. The nuances that are required to play well are seldom provided by youtube clips which tend to focus on the superficials so, to be able to move forward, you have to work at the details on your own, hence you develop your ear. Also, there are millions of tunes, solos, compositions etc that never get anywhere near youtube etc. If players remain focussed on the material played by most covers bands, musical development is unlilkely to be a crushing priority anyway. If 'Good Times' is the extent of anyone's aspirations, transcribing a piano solo on Giant Steps or a Maria Schneider arrangement is going to scare the s*** out of them

There is a lot more to being a musician than learning basslines.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1424173664' post='2693372']
...If players remain focussed on the material played by most covers bands, musical development is unlilkely to be a crushing priority anyway.
[/quote]

Wilde: I wish I'd said that.
Whistler: You will Oscar, you will.

[lojo]

When I need to learn a new cover (I constantly have a to learn list) , I sometimes just listen to it and jam along and get it , other times I might look for clip that might save a bit of time (most are awful, but it doesn't take long shift through).

For me, it takes longer to commit the structure to memory than the playing of the parts, most pop songs dont take that long at all to learn the lines, but Id have to hear it over and over to really commit the structure down (I find writing down the bars and noting things helps simplify stuff)

There are no rules, everyone has different talents, time restrictions and goals.

[Dad3353]

The folks that wrote and played the 'original' didn't always (in fact, quite seldom...) play the same way each and every time, so having one's [i]own [/i]'cover' version is, to me, eminently legitimate. There are often particular 'hook' lines (for bass as with other instruments...) that can play a key part, but to stick rigidly to any one version is, to me anyway, too limitative. I would agree that, in the woodshed, picking out and 'ripping' other player's stuff is a Good Thing, but playing in a 'covers' band does not imply having to regurgitate that which even the original players did not do.
Just my tuppence-worth...

[discreet]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1424174277' post='2693381']
...For me, it takes longer to commit the structure to memory than the playing of the parts, most pop songs dont take that long at all to learn the lines, but Id have to hear it over and over to really commit the structure down...
[/quote]

That's the other thing that puts me off covers bands. Not only do people not listen, they won't bloody [i]count[/i] either! Why not??
Not having a go at [i]you[/i], by the way - this is a general moan!

[lojo]

[quote name='Mook' timestamp='1424169479' post='2693299']
It's a shame that no-one really needs to do this anymore and it can only limit future generations musical ears which is so vital, not just for learning songs but for improvisation and last minute dep work.
[/quote]

As a busy family man, I am glad I no longer need to keep lifting a needle of a record or rewinding a slurry c90 in order to learn a tricky fill thats hard to hear in real time. It still takes effort, but tools are tools.

[lojo]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424174455' post='2693387']
That's the other thing that puts me off covers bands. Not only do people not listen, they won't bloody [i]count[/i] either! Why not??
Not having a go at [i]you[/i], by the way - this is a general moan!
[/quote]

The guys I play in my main band with, all come knowing exactly where all the parts are in the song, its part of the rule, rehearsals are run throughs , not for learning chords and structures

I would not want to be a part of a covers band that did not have this approach, we are not professionals , but time is tight, so we must have a professional approach

Edited February 17, 2015 by lojo

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1424174431' post='2693386']
...playing in a 'covers' band does not imply having to regurgitate that which even the original players did not do.
[/quote]

But it is the recording that became the hit that is the important version, the one that the original players [i]did [/i]do! It matters not how the original band play their hit subsequently; it's the hit that everyone is expecting to hear and that's what people expect you to play. IMHO, of course.

Edited February 17, 2015 by discreet

[discreet]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1424174636' post='2693392']
The guys I play in my main band with all come knowing exactly where all the parts are in the song, its part of the rule, rehearsals are run-throughs, not for learning chords and structures. I would not want to be a part of a covers band that did not have this approach.
[/quote]

Me neither, and I have walked more than once because people turn up to rehearsal without having learnt their stuff. This makes we want to punch them repeatedly. Rehearsals are not for learning material, that should already have been done. They are for fine-tuning and tweaking, and for talking about the singer behind his back.

Edited February 17, 2015 by discreet

[Nicko]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424172196' post='2693342']
Playing covers is precisely about replicating the original - that's what punters are expecting to hear and that's what you're being paid to do. 'We do our own version of it' is code for, 'We can't be bothered/aren't good enough to learn it properly'. As per my previous post - that's why I'm not in a covers band.
[/quote]

Well, yes and no. We're being paid to give people a good time, not play precisely what they can hear on a CD. We're a 4 piece covers band with one guitar and no keys. Playing precicely whats on the record would kinda limit the set list. It definitely doesn't mean I cant be arsed to learn it properly.

[discreet]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1424174947' post='2693402']
Well, yes and no. We're being paid to give people a good time, not play precisely what they can hear on a CD. We're a 4 piece covers band with one guitar and no keys. Playing precicely whats on the record would kinda limit the set list. It definitely doesn't mean I cant be arsed to learn it properly.
[/quote]

Well there's not much you can do about that. Let me rephrase: [i]Playing covers is about replicating the original as closely as possible given your band's line-up and available instrumentation, but this is no excuse for not learning it properly. [/i]Having said that, a decent keys player can go a long way with brass and strings and so forth, but try finding a decent keys player, I know, I know.

Edited February 17, 2015 by discreet

[lojo]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1424174431' post='2693386']
but playing in a 'covers' band does not imply having to regurgitate that which even the original players did not do.
[/quote]

Thats fine if your project goal is to creatively cover a song in a different way (for example I love war paints Ashes to Ashes) , but sometimes I think people say this to excuse the effort to learn a part.

At the moment we are getting an 80s set polished, and im doing my very best to play exactly what the original bass player played (even if that is taken from live versions)

[discreet]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1424175242' post='2693409']
Thats fine if your project goal is to creatively cover a song in a different way (for example I love war paints Ashes to Ashes) , but sometimes I think people say this to excuse the effort to learn a part.
[/quote]

Spot on. My view is - if you think you can do better than the original artist, then you should be writing and recording your own hits.

[Nicko]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424175165' post='2693407']
Well there's not much you can do about that. Let me rephrase: [i]Playing covers is about replicating the original as closely as possibly given your band's line-up and available instrumentation, but this is no excuse for not learning it properly. [/i]Having said that, a decent keys player can go a long way with brass and strings and so forth, but try finding a decent keys player, I know, I know.
[/quote]

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. I do agree on no excuse for learning it properly. Dont really want to mention musical competence to the band, just in case they start pointing at me

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424174652' post='2693393']
But it is the recording that became the hit that is the important version, the one that the original players [i]did [/i]do! It matters not how the original band play their hit subsequently; it's the hit that everyone is expecting to hear and that's what people expect you to play. IMHO, of course.
[/quote]

That must be it, then; we don't only cover 'hits'. I'm not sure, though, that our version of 'Highway to Hell' disappoints many of our audience. Different aspirations, horses for courses, and all that..? I'd be physically incapable, nowadays, to play drums like most of the stuff we cover, anyway. I simply adapt to the best, most adequate (or least disgracious..!) that I can make fit the music. The technical exercise of copying so as to acquire a technique suits me fine, but I see absolutely no reason for aping another drummer's style, note for note. Still, if anybody's listening that closely, it may be worthwhile to some.