Future generations musical ear worries

[TimR]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424169921' post='2693308']
...

My gripe is that no-one listens properly and are happy to say 'that'll do, it's close enough' or leave out important phrases or anything else that might be initially difficult to sort out. It's not just bass players, it's everyone. Which is why I'm not in a covers band.

There is no way I'd use a YouTube bass cover to learn a song - only a forensic assessment of the original will do. Thhpp!!
[/quote]

You are so wide of the mark here.

I played with a drummer like that. Once. I think it's called OCD. He would listen to tunes and dismiss them straight away. "We haven't got keyboards, we've only got one guitarist, we don't have an entire gospel choir for backing singers...".

A recording is simply a record of how a tune was played on that day at that time.

The punters do not expect a complete facsimile of a recording, it's just not physically possible. How can you play a tune with keyboards on the recording if you only have a bass and a guitar with that attitude? You'd be so limited to your setlist that you'd never get any gigs.

Too many people are far too anal about music. It's an art form, go and have fun.

Listen to the original artist play live, tell me that they play their own song the same as the recording.

Edited February 18, 2015 by TimR

[Musky]

If someone learns a song to a play along on Youtube surely they're still training their ear? They've still got to listen to the part and figure out what's going on. They might be learning the 'wrong' bassline but then again I've seem transcriptions with what I've thought are mistakes in them. Is it not ear training to learn a part that someone else has worked out and hear it's wrong?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1424248253' post='2694209']
... Listen to the original artist play live, tell me that they play their own song the same as the recording ...
[/quote]

So, you never saw the Eagles.

[TimR]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1424253296' post='2694293']


So, you never saw the Eagles.
[/quote]

No. I'm not familiar with the Eagles history, so don't understand what you mean. Either they're very particular about getting it spot on or the versions are completely different?

Judging by the fact that they've recorded 'live' albums, I'm guessing it must be the latter. What would be the point (other than financial) of releasing songs that are exactly the same? Just do a greatest hits album.

[timmo]

I would like to be able to play by ear. I find it difficult to listen to some songs and determine what the note is. Especially past the 7th fret. I think it is a skill worth learning, and something i will try to put more effort in. If you want to learn a song and you can do half of it just by listening, i guess it makes the task easier. That being said, i do use Youtube to find out how it is done.

[Marvin]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1424254757' post='2694311']


No. I'm not familiar with the Eagles history, so don't understand what you mean. Either they're very particular about getting it spot on or the versions are completely different?

Judging by the fact that they've recorded 'live' albums, I'm guessing it must be the latter. What would be the point (other than financial) of releasing songs that are exactly the same? Just do a greatest hits album.
[/quote]

Anal would be the word to use when referring to The Eagles

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1424254757' post='2694311']
No. I'm not familiar with the Eagles history, so don't understand what you mean. Either they're very particular about getting it spot on or the versions are completely different?

Judging by the fact that they've recorded 'live' albums, I'm guessing it must be the latter. What would be the point (other than financial) of releasing songs that are exactly the same? Just do a greatest hits album.
[/quote]
The Eagles in concert had a reputation, perhaps not wholly deserved, of sounding exactly like the studio album. That's all. It was intended to be a mildly humorous comment.

They did do a greatest hits album which is often said to be the third best selling album of all time. There was a financial point.

Edited February 18, 2015 by EssentialTension

[TimR]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1424262731' post='2694470']

The Eagles in concert had a reputation, perhaps not wholly deserved, of sounding exactly like the studio album. That's all. It was intended to be a mildly humorous comment.

They did do a greatest hits album which is often said to be the third best selling album of all time. There was a financial point.
[/quote]

Thanks.

However, they may be one of a few exceptions that proves the rule.

Most bands I have seen do live versions of their song that are not exactly the same as the recorded version.

[cybertect]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1424265811' post='2694507']Most bands I have seen do live versions of their song that are not exactly the same as the recorded version.[/quote]

Indeed, and TBH that's the way I rather like it.

I saw Suzanne Vega at the St Davids' Hall in Cardiff in 1987. The band was made up of the same [excellent] musicians who had played on her first album and it was a note perfect rendition with concert hall acoustics. With very little or no chat between songs, I remember sitting there wondering what the point of my seeing her live was; If I closed my eyes I might as well have stayed at home and listened to the record.

On the other hand, every time I see Robyn Hitchcock, it's often a surprise exactly how he's going to arrange any of the songs in his set.

[lojo]

One of the first things I do when I get a new list of covers to learn is you tube live versions of the songs, then I have the radio version and any thing more interesting that comes up on the live version to work with. Some live versions have some lovely additions others are awful compared to the recording.

[lojo]

This a good reason to not start saying, I like to put my own take on covers

http://youtu.be/TLR8bOAA4-8

[synthaside]

when learning a new song my attitude is use the resources you have , to learn a song in the best way you can , a mixture of crap you-tube tutorials ,
songster scrolling tab , sheet music and by ear .. to come up with that feel best represents what i hear when i listen to the song.

At the end of the day, if your playing to enjoy yourself and make a half tidy sounding racket down the bull and bush on a Wednesday night then whatever you come up with that goes with your arrangement is fine .

Professional muso or dabbling idiot in his bedroom , the answer to this question all comes down to what you want to get out of playing bass
If you find yourself playing a corporate covers band then i can see that paying for original liner notes , getting the sound down perfectly listening for hours on end to an original 45 to get the tone perfect is perfectly acceptable and encouraged but one shouldn't be-little the other's validity to the person doing it.

.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424175165' post='2693407']
Well there's not much you can do about that. Let me rephrase: [i]Playing covers is about replicating the original as closely as possible given your band's line-up and available instrumentation, but this is no excuse for not learning it properly. [/i]Having said that, a decent keys player can go a long way with brass and strings and so forth, but try finding a decent keys player, I know, I know.
[/quote]

Hmm. I pretty well disagree with all of that.

If someone wants to hear an exact copy of the original then they should stay at home with a CD,go to a disco, or go see a tribute band.
If they want something completely different then go and see an originals band.
If they want to see hear songs they know, but with a real live feel then they need a covers band.

How do you feel about people who have had famous hits with cover versions? (Hendrix being one very notable example).
What about Paul Young's version of "Wherever I lay my Hat". Was that, including Pino's bass line, worthless because it was a cover?

Edited February 18, 2015 by Count Bassy

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1424248253' post='2694209']
Too many people are far too anal about music. It's an art form, go and have fun.

Listen to the original artist play live, tell me that they play their own song the same as the recording.
[/quote]

Well said.

I saw 10cc live a few years ago. They reproduced their hits perfectly, and to be honest it was pretty dull. Give me an artist who gives you something different every time, any time of day.

My singing teacher tells me that when singing "you are not reproducing a song, but recreating it", and I think this should go for all live performances, whether it's an original or a cover.

[Mook]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1424248451' post='2694214']
If someone learns a song to a play along on Youtube surely they're still training their ear? They've still got to listen to the part and figure out what's going on. They might be learning the 'wrong' bassline but then again I've seem transcriptions with what I've thought are mistakes in them. Is it not ear training to learn a part that someone else has worked out and hear it's wrong?
[/quote]

Yeh I reckon this helps.....I've taught a few people though that treat the YouTube clips of people that learnt from YouTube clips of people and so on...as gospel. I totally agree that they are useful to steer people in the direction as long as they have the tools to figure out when the clips are wrong.

I never meant that I disagree with using YouTube clips, as I said, I use it myself.....It's just that it's a quick fix now but that's the modern age.

At the end of the day music is art and art is subjective so any approach is an individuals choice.

[Mook]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1424218278' post='2694109']
Eh?

EDIT: Not wishing to put words into his mouth, but my interpretation of his post is that Mook was merely conceding that [i][b]perhaps[/b][/i] time saving devices have their uses after-all, allowing more efficient use of ones limited practice time.
[/quote]

Spot on cheers

[chrismuzz]

I've joined two originals bands in the last six months, and on both occasions I've asked if they have any tabs

They didn't... And to be honest I've not had too much trouble learning stuff by ear, apart from the odd bit where the vocals obscure the parts

[Iain]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1424174947' post='2693402']
Well, yes and no. We're being paid to give people a good time, not play precisely what they can hear on a CD. We're a 4 piece covers band with one guitar and no keys. Playing precicely whats on the record would kinda limit the set list. It definitely doesn't mean I cant be arsed to learn it properly.
[/quote]

I remember seeing Garbage in Nottingham years back and it'd have been pretty dull if I hadn't had a front row view up Shirley Manson's skirt. Sounded exactly like the CDs.

Of the two covers bands I'm in one is pretty faithful to the originals and the other that has a lot of punk in it isn't so 'rigid'. Both work okay and both get appreciation. The punky outfit is way more fun though!

[Qlank]

Ruined a stack of LP's trying to get " That little bit there". This guy helped a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT9gEqur24E

[Telebass]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1424172196' post='2693342']


Playing covers is precisely about replicating the original - that's what punters are expecting to hear and that's what you're being paid to do. 'We do our own version of it' is code for, 'We can't be bothered/aren't good enough to learn it properly'. As per my previous post - that's why I'm not in a covers band.
[/quote]
Although I'm happy playing in covers bands, I agree that you should try and replicate pretty closely. Punters may not be musical very often, but they know, sometimes forensically, how their favourite choons go. What REALLY hacks me off is people putting whole extra musical interludes in the middle of things.

[TimR]

[quote name='Telebass' timestamp='1424333443' post='2695138']

Although I'm happy playing in covers bands, I agree that you should try and replicate pretty closely. Punters may not be musical very often, but they know, sometimes forensically, how their favourite choons go. What REALLY hacks me off is people putting whole extra musical interludes in the middle of things.
[/quote]

Some punters do and some don't.

Never heard of 12" remixes? Very popular in the 80s.

You'll find out when people come up at the end and tell you they really liked your take on ..., or that they've never heard a band play that tune before. When you've recognised that an overproduced tune is actually very simple and sounds just as good with bass and guitar.

The basic idea is to work out how verse, chorus, bridge and mid sections glue together. What the 'turnarounds' are. So altering the song to play double verses or double choruses works, and why sometime you can't just skip sections that are 'too hard to learn' and sometimes you can.

[ubit]

I have recently stopped my monthly subscription to a tab site, because I was finding more and more of them were quite clearly wrong. When I cancelled, I got a mail asking why? I told him, because some of the tabs, I would need to be ambidextrous to play. He said, oh, that's because we rely on people sending tabs in. If I'm paying, I want the tabs to be done by professionals , who have a decent clue about what's going on, not just by random people, who jump all over the neck playing impossible changes etc.!

[darkandrew]

On a slightly off-piste (but related note), what worries me more is that most younger people seem to listen to music on tinny iphones (or similar) where you can't hear the bass properly anyway and just sound generally awful. With that being the case, does it matter what you play or how you play it, as no-one's going to hear it reproduced properly anyway.

Edited February 19, 2015 by darkandrew

[TimR]

[quote name='darkandrew' timestamp='1424340175' post='2695227']
On a slightly off-piste (but related note), what worries me more is that most younger people seem to listen to music on tinny iphones (or similar) where you can't hear the bass properly anyway and just sound generally awful. With that being the case, does it matter what you play or how you play it, as no-one's going to hear it reproduced properly anyway.
[/quote]

'Properly'?

Don't overlook the missing fundamental:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

[paul_5]

I daresay our elders had similar concerns when that 'Rock and Roll' music (and later 'punk') came along.

What concerns me more (although that's still not much) is the increasing dependence on technology and software. What we've got to realise though is that music, like any other language, is in a constant state of development. Some words/sounds fall out of favour and get forgotten, and some get altered and bastardised and continue in a slightly different form.

It's a funny old game.