Dropzone Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Saw Enter Shikari last night. They were amazing but every band the bass was too low in the mix, yet the drums were mixed perfectly. Why do sound engineers do this. It is such a small thing but it kills the groove. I have seen lots of bands where this is the issue. Just ranting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As a former sound engineer (and drummer) myself, I think it often stems from the fact that the norm is for engineers to start with the drums during sound check and then balance from there. If they've spent 3 hours getting the bass drum right they may have run out of time to concentrate on the rest :-). All silliness aside though, I was always a "bassy" mixer due to my preference and love of bass, funk and soul. I was doing it in the early noughties and did notice a trend of younger engineers coming through who were all pulling the bass back and then just mainly having sickeningly loud thudding kick drums in the bottom end of the mix. You also have to remember that in a lot of venues, the spot at which the engineer is mixing (typically the back of the room) may be different to a spot where you're standing. He (chauvanistically assuming it is a him) might be hearing resonance which is causing him to pull the bass out, which is making it obvious where you are if you're not getting the resonance? That sort of stuff is more relevant if he's a visiting engineer and doesn't know the venue. Just my ten penneth of course - he could be just a poor engineer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I know sod-all about mixing, so my opinion is probably pants, but I often get annoyed at the drum sound at concerts. It seems to me that the engineers spend too much time getting the individual drums to ring out separately, rather than treating the kit as a whole. So you get the big thuddy bass drum and sharp crack from the snare, but to me they sound like they might as well be separate instruments, whereas great drummers always seem to work the kit as a single thing. But maybe I'm unreasonably expecting a live mix to sound like my favourite records or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) been getting on my tits for a while now, there's a current fashion for having the bass drum loud in the mix, usually quite clicky which is the frequency the bass sits in, so to give the sound bottom end they EQ the bass right down the result being it's a muddy mess. It really pissed me off when I went to see the Quo reunion gigs, I wanted them to sound like the did in the early 70's not hear the thum thum of the bass drum all night. edit, I know sod all about mixing either, but I do like to hear what the bass players doing Edited February 17, 2015 by PaulWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1424183908' post='2693560'] been getting on my tits for a while now, there's a current fashion for having the bass drum loud in the mix, usually quite clicky which is the frequency the bass sits in, so to give the sound bottom end they EQ the bass right down the result being it's a muddy mess... [/quote] To get a clicky "modern metal" bass drum, you need to cut all the mids out, which would leave plenty of room for bass guitar IME the kick drum sound they go for is to cut everything between 200Hz and 5KHz, then boost sharply at 10KHz This isn't necessarily a bad approach, as it should leave plenty of room for bass. I've definitely experienced the phenomena, and we had another quite lengthy thread on the subject only a few weeks ago. What causes it is way beyond me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424184651' post='2693569'] To get a clicky "modern metal" bass drum, you need to cut all the mids out, which would leave plenty of room for bass guitar IME the kick drum sound they [u]should[/u] go for is to cut everything between 200Hz and 5KHz, then boost sharply at 10KHz This isn't necessarily a bad approach, as it should leave plenty of room for bass. I've definitely experienced the phenomena, and we had another quite lengthy thread on the subject only a few weeks ago. What causes it is way beyond me! [/quote]fixed, and only when it's a modern metal band Edited February 17, 2015 by PaulWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natjag Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'm sure some engineers just want to show of the subs with a heavy kick drum. I'm an a early '60's shadows type band, the lead guitarist has sometimes pulled the cable from the kick drum mic just so the engineer has to let the bass drive the band rather than a modern kick drum. Although no kick on some of these bigger systems probably leaves a massive hole in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1424185698' post='2693579'] fixed, and only when it's a modern metal band [/quote] Honestly, I've seen this at loads of gigs. The kick drum is very scooped, leaving plenty of room for bass guitar, but for whatever reason, you still can't hear the bass guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The best live sound I've heard in the last year, was The Human League where everything except the vocals was electronically generated, and a German Rockabilly band we did a tour with. Their sound checks were a complete eye-opener. Instead of starting with the drums, they started by getting the vocals as clear and loud as they could and then mixed in all the other instruments underneath. The instrumentation was fairly complex - drums bass, two guitars, sax and three-part vocals, but everything had its own space and the vocals were load and clear without feedback. The worst sound was HIM which was all drums, high register vocals only and the guitar bass and keyboards blended into a low-frequency mush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1424186443' post='2693593'] and a German Rockabilly band we did a tour with. Their sound checks were a complete eye-opener. Instead of starting with the drums, they started by getting the vocals as clear and loud as they could and then mixed in all the other instruments underneath. The instrumentation was fairly complex - drums bass, two guitars, sax and three-part vocals, but everything had its own space and the vocals were load and clear without feedback. [/quote] I've often wondered (as a non-sound engineer) why this doesn't happen more often - after all, how many people go to a show thinking "Oh, I'm really looking forward to the bass drum sound tonight?" I'm sure most sound engineers will come up with plausible arguments for doing it their way but great to hear somebody is bucking the trend and getting it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 A loud bass drum, and a loud bass guitar, are not opposed to each other. They can exist together! I don't think we can simply blame the kick drum here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1424187210' post='2693611'] I've often wondered (as a non-sound engineer) why this doesn't happen more often - after all, how many people go to a show thinking "Oh, I'm really looking forward to the bass drum sound tonight?" I'm sure most sound engineers will come up with plausible arguments for doing it their way but great to hear somebody is bucking the trend and getting it right. [/quote] Probably because like any trade or skill, you learn from watching others and this is how it is usually done. As drums are often the most acoustic instrument on stage, it does make sense to get them under control first and then add things to them, but as with any artistic endeavour, I don't believe that there should be any rules on this, and if you (as in the engineer) want to start by checking the organists pedal board, then do it and stand by your sound. Also, in my experience, once guitarists and bassists, keyboards etc have plugged in and start to sound check, they want to start widdling around and won't shut up when you want to get to the drums. However, they will often sit together as a group offstage waiting for the drummer to do his thing if he's first. Cheddatom is totally correct though, there is no reason why kick drum and bass can't live together, and loudly. My issue I was talking about was these huge rigs where the thump of the kick was whacking you in the chest and making you nauseous, and it was detracting from the rest of the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There`s always the possibility that the band themselves want this for their live sound. I wouldn`t, and agree with the above posts, but maybe that`s what they want from the mix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 [quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1424188740' post='2693627'] ...My issue I was talking about was these huge rigs where the thump of the kick was whacking you in the chest and making you nauseous, and it was detracting from the rest of the sound. [/quote] I've not been to many of these gigs. I did read a while ago that this sort of chest thumping is potentially dangerous. I think someone died in Koko from a heart attack which was thought to be linked to the bass. You would think this would scare off the sub-hungry soundmen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 just a fad, it'll pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Digital desks play a part I'm sure. The sound man thinks, here's the preset for kick eq, compression is a memory bank away and voila! I'm going to really light the blue touch paper now and suggest the lack of bass is due to them insisting on a pre eq send.... Stand well back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The current crop of sound 'engineers' haven't got a clue IMO. They all seem to get a sh*te sound. Must be something they're taught at college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 [quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1424188740' post='2693627'] Probably because like any trade or skill, you learn from watching others and this is how it is usually done. As drums are often the most acoustic instrument on stage, it does make sense to get them under control first and then add things to them, but as with any artistic endeavour, I don't believe that there should be any rules on this, and if you (as in the engineer) want to start by checking the organists pedal board, then do it and stand by your sound. Also, in my experience, once guitarists and bassists, keyboards etc have plugged in and start to sound check, they want to start widdling around and won't shut up when you want to get to the drums. However, they will often sit together as a group offstage waiting for the drummer to do his thing if he's first. Cheddatom is totally correct though, there is no reason why kick drum and bass can't live together, and loudly. My issue I was talking about was these huge rigs where the thump of the kick was whacking you in the chest and making you nauseous, and it was detracting from the rest of the sound. [/quote] Interesting points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I do our sound and I must admit I do start with the drums because they seem to be the thing that gives me a problem if I'm going to get one, the vocals and guitars generally sound ok from the off fairly flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victor5string Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424186313' post='2693589'] Honestly, I've seen this at loads of gigs. The kick drum is very scooped, leaving plenty of room for bass guitar, but for whatever reason, you still can't hear the bass guitar. [/quote] Metal bass players still(not all but a fair few) keep scooping the mids out, so there is not a great deal to fill that gap and there tone just disappears with the drums and guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Im not biting this time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1424261084' post='2694442'] Im not biting this time.. [/quote] Hah, as in the other thread, obviously there are exceptions. Whenever I see a gig and you're doing the sound, the bass is nice and fat. However, if you go to a few rock gigs in the "city center" (naming no names) you'll see what we're on about. Having said that, it seems to me that a lot of these modern heavy bands are scooping the bass on their recordings too, so when the bass is on it's own, it's a fairly good sound with loads of low end and some distortion on top, but then when the guitars kick in, you can't hear the bass at all. It seems really weird, but this is the sound they like, so I guess some of the sound guys are copying that studio sound for the live shows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1424188740' post='2693627'] Probably because like any trade or skill, you learn from watching others and this is how it is usually done. As drums are often the most acoustic instrument on stage, it does make sense to get them under control first and then add things to them, but as with any artistic endeavour, I don't believe that there should be any rules on this, and if you (as in the engineer) want to start by checking the organists pedal board, then do it and stand by your sound. [/quote] Surely the vocals are the most acoustic instrument on the stage and also normally the quietest but also the most important from an audience PoV. Therefore it makes total sense to get them sounding good and mix the rest of the band around that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424261461' post='2694447'] Hah, as in the other thread, obviously there are exceptions. Whenever I see a gig and you're doing the sound, the bass is nice and fat. However, if you go to a few rock gigs in the "city center" (naming no names) you'll see what we're on about. Having said that, it seems to me that a lot of these modern heavy bands are scooping the bass on their recordings too, so when the bass is on it's own, it's a fairly good sound with loads of low end and some distortion on top, but then when the guitars kick in, you can't hear the bass at all. It seems really weird, but this is the sound they like, so I guess some of the sound guys are copying that studio sound for the live shows [/quote] Thanks Tom.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote][b]victor5string, on 18 February 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:[/b] Metal bass players still(not all but a fair few) keep scooping the mids out, so there is not a great deal to fill that gap and there tone just disappears with the drums and guitars. [/quote] This is definitely a contributing factor, I wasn't guilty of that when I was in a metal band, but it does do my head in that so many metal bassits scoop their mids so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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