Are all sound engineers drum techs

[BigRedX]

For me sound checking is about making sure that everything that should be coming out of the PA is and with roughly the right balance in volume, and getting an acceptable on-stage sound.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1427368016' post='2729370']
For me sound checking is about making sure that everything that should be coming out of the PA is and with roughly the right balance in volume, and getting an acceptable on-stage sound.
[/quote]

I totally agree, and was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I said I didn't like doing it, However, sometimes the room suddenly being deadened by a lot of bodies can affect the on stage sound too (depending on the room). Some bands need to remember this when they can't understand that "everything has changed" and they start shouting at the engineer (or slagging them off over the mic which is one of the most disrespectful things you can do IMHO).

[scalpy]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1427315937' post='2728902']


you've quite clearly never worked with a sound engineer who knows ANYTHING about live sound because i can assure you that most presets in digital desk (i'd be interested to know which ones you've worked with) are total rubbish and pretty much unusable.

[/quote]

Sound engineers I've worked with-

Live

The guy who did the Olympic opening ceremony at henley festival.
London Jazz festival at the Barbican.
Cheltenham jazz festival.

Studio-

I've been recorded by engineers who've worked with john giblin, Alan Johnson, guy Pratt, geddy lee and Paul McCartney.

This is the top stuff I've done. I'm not saying they used presets. Hacking round the small theatre circuit and what passes for music venues in London now, I have my suspicions about presets at those gigs. Can't prove it. What I can tell you is that the top guys are always very friendly and helpful and you're much more likely to come across the 'I'm the expert' attitude a rung or two down the ladder.

And I always ask whether they want pre or post and the top guys want post.

Edited March 26, 2015 by scalpy

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1427316328' post='2728912']
I'm interested as to why a sound engineer "has to be a drummer" to be able to get a good drum sound these days?
[/quote]

They don`t have to be, was just following on from the theme of this thread. Same ways as you`d expect a good bass mix from a bassist. Not that they`re biased in any way, more like that their ears are naturally tuned towards a specific instrument.

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1427321895' post='2729001']
all getting a bit snarky.
My advice is, if any of you are interested enough in live sound to have a negative opinion about everybody else's efforts, perhaps some dedicated study of the real problems facing sound engineers, often mixing bands who's stage sound is awful, through an unbalanced rig, in 10 minutes, so they can do the other 4 bands who insist on "our check, man".
It really is invigorating.
Then you can move on to moaning about the onstage sound, the lack of mics on the bass amps, the predominance of guitar amps in FOH and singers who barely breathe into their mic and deal with that.
Happily, I don't do much of that anymore, but you're welcome to, seeing as it's so easy : )
[/quote]

I said I wasn't going to bite this time... And I'm not, but... The above is perfect and I whole-heartedly agree!

Except I still work most nights, lucky enough to have an acceptable rig and adequate room damping!

I've found those interested are willing to learn and quickly share the enthusiasm in understanding the job and doing it well. On the other hand, those who criticise and make sweeping statements often have little understanding of mixing / system and room limitations. When offered the console (digital or otherwise!) to do a 'better job' very quickly baulk. I like the wife of the singer in the middle aged rock covers bands best!

And just a little note on digital consoles. Used properly, they make life better and more effiicient for the engineer AND musician. The Soundcraft consoles I use do not have 'Vocal EQ' or 'Kick drum gate' presets (the Yamaha does but I don't need them and don't often use it for FOH) so when you start from flat, you start from flat and the only 'saves' in their memories are the ones I have put in using my ears and experience. They conveniently remember everything except input gain and hpf in / out which is very helpful for multi-band events.

Personally, I'd hate to have to go back to an analogue console with no memory, a giant rack full of gates, compressors, FX units and EQs. All week at a festival with 40 shows and no support? I'd even rather use an LS9!

[VTypeV4]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/FullSizeRender4_zps01cca32b.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/FullSizeRender4_zps01cca32b.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Although I did quite enjoy using the 02R as FOH. I might replace the 328 monitor desk wiith an 02R as the Aux send on faders was very quick and convenient..

[cheddatom]

As always, there's good and bad. I was at a local festival last year. There was a band with an electronic drum kit. For the first 4 songs of their set, no-one could hear the drums at all, and clearly the singers were struggling to hear themselves. They kept asking for more in the monitors but there was almost constant feedback. They abandoned their set after 4 songs. I think they were supposed to play an hour

This guy gets a lot of local gigs, and clearly people think he's doing a great job!!

I wish you did all the local gigs Matt

[spacey]

Di on the bass never really helps unless you like the sound of your bass plugged straight in to a clean amp.
Thats what's coming out front, your sound you created and spent years getting right stays on stage.
Unless you fight your corner, hours sometimes on drums, play the bass mate, ten seconds for a level, right on to the guitar for twenty minutes.

You have to sometimes collar them and say go get a ****ing Mic and mic the cab up and get the sound I have here out front.
Often your sound is a mix of compression and slight overdrive creating sustain you realy on to play certain things.
A dry DI, slight fiddle with the desk EQ and you are just a dull rumble with no sustain and there is nothing to put back in the mix to start with.

Any sound engineer not willing to help, well not as if there is a shortage these days is it.
A lot have forgotten that it is the artistes who are the important people in the room, the sound man has a job to do and that requires listening to the people he is supposed to be working for sometimes.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1427451944' post='2730469']
Di on the bass never really helps unless you like the sound of your bass plugged straight in to a clean amp.
Thats what's coming out front, your sound you created and spent years getting right stays on stage.
Unless you fight your corner, hours sometimes on drums, play the bass mate, ten seconds for a level, right on to the guitar for twenty minutes.

You have to sometimes collar them and say go get a ****ing Mic and mic the cab up and get the sound I have here out front.
Often your sound is a mix of compression and slight overdrive creating sustain you realy on to play certain things.
A dry DI, slight fiddle with the desk EQ and you are just a dull rumble with no sustain and there is nothing to put back in the mix to start with.

Any sound engineer not willing to help, well not as if there is a shortage these days is it.
A lot have forgotten that it is the artistes who are the important people in the room, the sound man has a job to do and that requires listening to the people he is supposed to be working for sometimes.
[/quote]

When I was a sound engineer - I think me and you would have gotten on famously - in the car park outside....

I'm sorry but your attitude stinks. If you go into a venue thinking like that, then you're going to butt heads each time, and possbily a disgruntled engineer who senses that from you might make your life harder and your sound s**tter. Sometimes, micing cabs just isn't practical. I often asked for "pre EQ" - because there are just as many bassists without a clue as there are sound engineers and I had a rack of patchable dynamics and effects on hand myself. However, if I could see that the bass player was heavily effects driven or had a unique sound through his amp, then I would go post. I might even be tempted to mic, if I felt it would help and I wanted to go the extra mile for this band (which I often did).

It's all about working together and listening is a two way street. Sound engineering can be an artform in itself, and an engineer can make a mediocre band sound great, but they can't always stop a s**t band sounding s**t.

Remember, engineers often don't work for you, then often work for the venue, or are hired in by the venue - and probably multiple venues. If you act like a prima donna and upset them, you may find it is you who is begging to get a gig, not the other way around. Bands are ten a penny too these days.....

Just my humble opinion of course!

EDIT: I would add that I'm not defending every single sound engineer - some are useless....

Edited March 27, 2015 by Huge Hands

[Monckyman]

Nooo not the LS9!, every time I use one i keep trying to put my finger through the touch screen it hasn't got.
There are terrible chancers out there, despite everyone thinking they are being churned out by grant seeking colleges.I recently supported a well known band in a venue in Stoke...We were all miced and plugged in and got a rapid line test kick yeh snare yeah hats yeah tom yeah etc til main vox then it was
OK lets hear a song..
I looked incredulously at FOH, then turned sideways and glared at the "monitor engineer", texting someone while sat on a stool near the desk.
Given that two of us were on in ears, it would have been impossible to even attempt a song.After a bit of prompting, this young lad, leaned over and started turning on the master channels, and waited for instruction, which I forcibly gave him.
At no time during this process did he apply any EQ to anything, neither inputs or outputs.
Time was, of course short as the "well known band" had squeezed the marrow from the time table.
So we played a song, got "Youth" to adjust, played another song, which is when I noticed FOH had gone for a cig.
I must admit to a (long) moment of boiling rage.
Getting the gig, getting here, rehearsing, costing it, getting the musos all in the same place sober, had all taken its toll, and now these pair of f*** knuckles were treating us like the sh*t on their shoes.
I stopped myself from comment and we left the stage, knowing that no improvement was possible given the workforces attitude.
The gig was OK, we probably sounded appalling in FOH, certainly did onstage.
left feeling raped.
We take out own FOH now, though we really can't afford him, it's far better in the long term than spending on getting to a gig only to be subverted by a local twat.
So I feel the pain, but they are the exception, really.
Apart from that bloke in Bristol...
: 0

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1427451944' post='2730469']
Di on the bass never really helps unless you like the sound of your bass plugged straight in to a clean amp.
Thats what's coming out front, your sound you created and spent years getting right stays on stage.
Unless you fight your corner, hours sometimes on drums, play the bass mate, ten seconds for a level, right on to the guitar for twenty minutes.

You have to sometimes collar them and say go get a ****ing Mic and mic the cab up and get the sound I have here out front.
Often your sound is a mix of compression and slight overdrive creating sustain you realy on to play certain things.
A dry DI, slight fiddle with the desk EQ and you are just a dull rumble with no sustain and there is nothing to put back in the mix to start with.

Any sound engineer not willing to help, well not as if there is a shortage these days is it.
A lot have forgotten that it is the artistes who are the important people in the room, the sound man has a job to do and that requires listening to the people he is supposed to be working for sometimes.
[/quote]that's why I use an FX pedal, to get 'my sound' when the everything on the amp is flat,

[PaulWarning]

and another thing, how come 90% of the time the support bands sound is crap compared to the headliners? not just quieter but the mix is usually all over the place

[Monckyman]

Because..
A/ They have to rely on locals who don't care about the band or know their material.
B/ Their is often very little time left for supports to soundcheck as most headliners seeing a 4 hour slot from get in to doors, will take 3.59 hours to soundcheck.
C/ Support bands often don't put the same effort as headliners into getting a realistic stage balance between guitars bass and drums, BEFORE amplifying via monitors and FOH, perhaps because headliners have experienced crew to help achieve that, and space in pre production rehearsals to nail it?
But I'd mainly go with A&B

[roonjuice]

I have read this thread with great interest. Some good points, and some very jaded views too.
The best way to reinforce bass properly is DI pre AND post, with a mic also.
One of the main reasons supports sound less polished, is due to them all being crammed onto the remaining 2 feet on the front lip of the stage, as they have had to set up in front of the headliners. All that lovely separation u got for the headliners ha gone as all the sounds bleed into the other mics.. Particularly drums into vocal mics as they are in close proximity.

[VTypeV4]

Monckyman:

If you were to ever play The Rigger (or indeed any show I was mixing), rest assured you'd have a great sound and would be well looked after. It's a little sadening to know other local venues aren't so dilligent especially considering our local scene isn't too bouyant. And yes, the LS9 is a love / hate relationship. Which side of the fence do I sit with it? After a few years using them, I'm still unsure!

Chedatom:

Love you man!

Spacey:

Bad form.. Such attitude, rudeness and short sightedness would be inexcusable. And I consider myself to be one of the 'nice' ones.

[spacey]

Apologies, but some people need winding up a bit, turn the key, let them go, it is irresistible.
Brings out the inner within them for us all to see.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1427480768' post='2731013']
Apologies, but some people need winding up a bit, turn the key, let them go, it is irresistible.
Brings out the inner within them for us all to see.
[/quote]

If by "winding people up" you're talking about the engineer in the venue, then I agree that one of the important traits a good engineer should have is decisiveness, such as an ability to be able to speak to guitarists in a way that will stop them noodling on for ages, without bruising their egos too much, so that you can get everything done. If your engineer is a bit aloof and not good at this, then sometimes, as a person trying to proactively get the job done, then it can be helpful to try and be strong with them and guide them - actually telling your own bandmates who know you to shut the f**k up when the engineer is trying to move on to the next instrument is always a massive help and something I always try and do with my bands.

If you were talking about me as in my response to your post, then I would inform you that I'm not ranting or upset at all. I'm saying if you came into a gig I was working on with that attitude, you would get no respect from me, and you'd probably end up with the mic up your a**e instead of in front of your cab. I'm only joking of course as I wouldn't want to waste a good mic, but remember it is one engineer against a "band of brothers", so sometimes you have to get tough (but fair).

I hope you see this post (and my last) as a bit of jokey banter as it was intended in terms of the macho posturing stuff, but I do think that if you're not joking, you seriously could do with considering your attitude in how you deal with techs. As the OP alluded to, often techs are musos too, and sometimes do this because they enjoy the techy stuff, not because they're a "failed musician". I've met plenty of techs who could wipe their band off the stage with their playing but choose not to showboat about it. I don't include myself as someone who could play that well by the way!

[bremen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1424186443' post='2693593']
The best live sound I've heard...Rockabilly band we did a tour with. Their sound checks were a complete eye-opener. Instead of starting with the drums, they started by getting the vocals as clear and loud as they could and then mixed in all the other instruments underneath. The instrumentation was fairly complex - drums bass, two guitars, sax and three-part vocals, but everything had its own space and the vocals were load and clear without feedback.


[/quote]

Played a gig with Steel Pulse many years ago and they did this. By the time they got down to bass it was perfectly balanced, then they added drums and it exploded into awesomeness. The sound at the gig was wonderful but the souncheck was perfect :-)

Edited March 27, 2015 by bremen

[cheddatom]

Went to watch another local gig last night, kick drum in the chest again. I swear I read about this causing a heart attack in Koko in London? If so why is it not illegal yet?!

Put the ear plugs in and the mix wasn't awful, but as usual, could not hear the bass, only feel it through the subs. ARRRGH

[Ben Jamin]

I'm more of an engineer than a bassist and I have the pleasure of gigging a DigiCo SD8 and a nice rig. Anyway I thought it might be helpful to contribute along with some of others here from the engineer's perspective:

It pains me to say this on this forum, but when it comes to sorting a mix out, nailing the bass tone isn't my first priority.

It all depends on the band of course, but generally the workflow (for most engineers I know too) is:

Line check and get correct levels for everything in order of whoever's ready to go first.

Get a quick basic drum mix - they are the most complicated instrument to mix in terms of microphones and drummers playing at different dynamics etc so it's good to get that out of the way. Often this involves changing mic positions to avoid spill, a fair amount of EQing, panning and various compression techniques.

Then make sure the vocals are present, everyone can hear them and there are no feedback issues etc. Normally just EQ, maybe add a bit of subtle compression and a tiny tiny bit of plate reverb to take the edge off.

Then mix the mid-range instruments (guitars/keys etc) so that everything is clearly separated as opposed to a wall of mush (unless that's what the band is going for). EQ, compression, panning etc depending on style and musical ability etc.

THEN concentrate on mixing the mid-range, drums and bass together to get a solid band sound around the vocals.

Then double-check everyone's monitors are generally okay.

Then try a whole song to test FOH, stage and IEMs sound. At THIS point I'll work on making the bass sound 'nice' as opposed to 'appropriate ' if I get the chance and there aren't any bigger issues.

Then I'll go around the band and make monitor adjustments, talk through any issues with them and sort them out.

Then hopefully there'll be time to try another song, where I'll then probably work on the bass tone again as part of mixing the band as a whole.

Throughout the soundcheck I'll be talking to the band to make sure they're happy, get an idea of what they're going to be doing and keep everything friendly.

So anyway that's maybe half an hour? Usually all the time you get inbetween sorting every other little technical problem out and waiting for the band to pull themselves together and stop twiddling on their guitars and eating McDonalds.

During the gig I'll be constantly mixing and making adjustments to try and make THE BAND sound as good as possible. Sometimes that does involve squishing the bass a bit, as dare I say it often they are the most inconsistent of the band (sorry!!!)

All in all, my job as an engineer is to try and make the band sound good. You've got to maintain that band mindset as opposed to getting caught up on specific instruments.

I'm a pretty patient guy with a long fuse but if you factor in spending a good while setting up the stage/PA and the fact that most people are going to shout/complain at you for the next few hours regardless of their knowledge of how it all works and what you're actually doing then you can see how some engineers can get a bit irrate.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ben Jamin

[VTypeV4]

Not meaning to de-rail the thread but..

Ben, how do you find the SD8? I've only done one show one but found it very friendly, intuitive and inviting to use. I loved the touch screen, the assignable fader banks, the simplicity of the fader groups and how 'graphical' in the interface was.. Sadly one show isn't really enough to get to know a desk thoroughly but the Digico made a very positive impression.

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0034_zpsuvgfaevi.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0034_zpsuvgfaevi.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0033_zpsfayooaqa.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0033_zpsfayooaqa.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

A show I did at the Victoria Hall last year..

[Ben Jamin]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1428620727' post='2743256']
Not meaning to de-rail the thread but..

Ben, how do you find the SD8? I've only done one show one but found it very friendly, intuitive and inviting to use. I loved the touch screen, the assignable fader banks, the simplicity of the fader groups and how 'graphical' in the interface was.. Sadly one show isn't really enough to get to know a desk thoroughly but the Digico made a very positive impression.
[/quote]

Yeah it's a great desk!

We've had the SD8 for a few years now and it's great, never missed a beat
The channel strip layout is really useful and intuitive, really easy to see the EQ/comps etc on each channel and change them quick. I run the groups in the centre bank with monitor sends, effects and outputs on the other pages and then have all my channels on the left/right as duplicates - a page of drum mics, page of vocals, page of band, page of other playback/presenter mics etc. It's really easy to get set up.

The dynamic EQ is really useful and the tube-sim on the input gain section is actually pretty good! Warms stuff nicely and the subtle overdrive sounds really nice, I sometimes use it on vocals in a rock kind of context or to saturate a DI'd bass just a little.

Another really useful feature is the snapshots. One of the biggest productions we did had genre changes for every song which meant instrument/routing/monitor changes and the works. We got to soundcheck each song pretty thoroughly though and saved each as a snapshot so on the night it was just a case of firing through those and it worked great You can select/de-select pretty comprehensively which things you want to save as snapshots and what you want to leave as global for the session too.

Here's a quick phone pic:

[PaulWarning]

just got back from Strummercamp, the usual indistinct bass sound, till the Ruts DC's slot, all of a sudden I could hear every note Segs Jennings played, (and what a player, thumb, fingers but mostly a pick with all down strokes, how he plays that fast I really don't know).
I was so intrigued by the sudden vast improvement in the bass sound I messaged him on Facebook, back came the reply, "We've got our own sound engineer", says it all don't it?

[cheddatom]

I played at a big local venue again on Saturday. I had a little chat with the soundman after. Now, I know this guy is clever and knows his stuff, but I was bemused when he said "Yeh, it sounded great out here, but it was so loud!!". He's got the volume control right, and he can ask us to turn down on stage if necessary, so he's in control of how loud it is. However, I have a new theory...

On modern recorded rock music, the cymbals are generally far quieter than the close miced drums. When a rock drummer plays live, acoustically, the cymbals are generally the loudest bits of the kit. If the sound engineer is trying to create a mix that sounds like this (rather than compromise) then he'll have to raise the close-miced drums to ridiculous volumes, and then the other instruments are brought up to compete.

[DaveFry]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTtswoWkGQU[/media]

Wait for the bass