Chrismanbass Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1434964185' post='2804122'] I played at a big local venue again on Saturday. I had a little chat with the soundman after. Now, I know this guy is clever and knows his stuff, but I was bemused when he said "Yeh, it sounded great out here, but it was so loud!!". He's got the volume control right, and he can ask us to turn down on stage if necessary, so he's in control of how loud it is. However, I have a new theory... On modern recorded rock music, the cymbals are generally far quieter than the close miced drums. When a rock drummer plays live, acoustically, the cymbals are generally the loudest bits of the kit. If the sound engineer is trying to create a mix that sounds like this (rather than compromise) then he'll have to raise the close-miced drums to ridiculous volumes, and then the other instruments are brought up to compete. [/quote] I've adopted a way of soundchecking drums which i think works quite well in that i ask the player to just play, it doesn't really matter what they do as long as they use the whole kit. i refer to it as drummer fun time as they love to show off. Then i start of with my overheads and get as fuller sounding kit sound from them as possible (obviously you wont get everything but you'd be amazed what you can do with a bit of effort) after this with the drummer still playing use the close mic's to fill in the sound to your preference if you want a massive thumping kick (which is great for some rock and dance/electronica music) then you can I tend to find i get a more defined and natural sounding drum kit than using the traditional method of Kick....... snare....... hats....... tom 1....... etc its a studio mixing technique but it works really well for the gigs i've done with it so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 [quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1434991911' post='2804498'] I've adopted a way of soundchecking drums which i think works quite well in that i ask the player to just play, it doesn't really matter what they do as long as they use the whole kit. i refer to it as drummer fun time as they love to show off. Then i start of with my overheads and get as fuller sounding kit sound from them as possible (obviously you wont get everything but you'd be amazed what you can do with a bit of effort) after this with the drummer still playing use the close mic's to fill in the sound to your preference if you want a massive thumping kick (which is great for some rock and dance/electronica music) then you can I tend to find i get a more defined and natural sounding drum kit than using the traditional method of Kick....... snare....... hats....... tom 1....... etc its a studio mixing technique but it works really well for the gigs i've done with it so far [/quote] I'd just add a 'rider' to the above, in that, if the individual elements have been set up first (Kick - thump, thump, thump... snare- thwack, thwack, thwack... hi-hat - chick, chick, swish, swish... tom1 - boing, boing, boing... etc...), they should then all be taken down, to be added afterwards in the way you describe: bring up the o/h to capture the kit, then fill in the elements as required. The 'traditional' order is fine by me, as long as the initial 'kick' result is not taken as the reference point for the whole kit. That, imo, is where the error lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 the gig I was talking about above had no overheads on the kit at all. They're generally not needed in the size of venue I play (if indoors) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1435045302' post='2804825'] the gig I was talking about above had no overheads on the kit at all. They're generally not needed in the size of venue I play (if indoors) [/quote] No o/h but the drums were close-miced..? Is that what you mean..? If so, how did the kit sound acoustically if the cymbals were drowning out the snare and toms..? There seems to be an inherent imbalance there. Genuinely intrigued. Edited June 23, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I'm not sure if you've seen a young rock band recently? But the drummer tends to smash the sh*t out of the cymbals while struggling to get any level out of the drums - this is acoustically God knows why they do this. Anyway, in a small venue (200 people ish) the cymbals end up very loud IMO, if you're going for the modern rock drum sound, you have to go very easy on any cymbals you're "riding" (open hats, ride, crashes), and absolutely smash the snare and kick, but yeh, no-one seems to go for this approach, especially if the music is quite fast or technical - ever seen a death metal drummer? I'm sure there are good ones, but most of the amateurs I've seen simply can't keep up with the tempo, and can't get a good sound out of the snare as they can't hit hard consistently at that speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1435055624' post='2804932'] I'm not sure if you've seen a young rock band recently? But the drummer tends to smash the sh*t out of the cymbals while struggling to get any level out of the drums - this is acoustically God knows why they do this. Anyway, in a small venue (200 people ish) the cymbals end up very loud IMO, if you're going for the modern rock drum sound, you have to go very easy on any cymbals you're "riding" (open hats, ride, crashes), and absolutely smash the snare and kick, but yeh, no-one seems to go for this approach, especially if the music is quite fast or technical - ever seen a death metal drummer? I'm sure there are good ones, but most of the amateurs I've seen simply can't keep up with the tempo, and can't get a good sound out of the snare as they can't hit hard consistently at that speed. [/quote] OK, OK; now I understand a bit better where you're coming from. In that case, yes, I totally agree; it's madness. Still, youf will be youf. The expression involving silk purses and sow's ears comes to mind. Is this why the term 'breakables' is applied also to cymbals..? My current set cost nearly £3000, so it's an expensive hobby if you're thrashing 'em to destruction. If they're cheap ones, they'll be sounding like hubcaps, anyway..! Other than homicide, I've no 'miracle' solution for fitting that into a mix. I'd go out back and enjoy a nice strawberry milkshake until it was all over. Yes, I'm old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 it's similar to the bassist with mids so scooped he can't hear himself, or the guitarist with so much gain he sounds like white noise. I guess you just have to grow out of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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