New bass amp/speaker concept

[tauzero]

[quote name='Caledonian_Enterprises' timestamp='1424691728' post='2699117']
[color=#141414]Im currently designing a concept valve amp/bass speaker for a uni project to take to market. its in early stages of development but will be constructed of plexi glass and lit with colour strips. Im looking for market feedback regarding interest in the product.[/color]
[/quote]

Lexan might be a better bet than plexiglass, though either would be heavy and I suspect difficult to tame acoustically. It's an interesting idea but not one that appeals to me personally. You might be better off looking at the practice amp or small combo end of the spectrum, there's a lot of smallish black boxes out there and this would certainly stand out.

[yorks5stringer]

This time last year I was lucky enough to win a play of an album of my choice through a £30k Hi-Fi here: [url="http://www.audiolounge.co.uk/our-listening-room/#0"]http://www.audiolounge.co.uk/our-listening-room/#0[/url] The speakers which you can see, were made of plexi glass and weighed lots. I seem to remember they were designed internally so no 2 surfaces directly faced each other.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Caledonian_Enterprises' timestamp='1424729086' post='2699859']
its still early stages as you can see, all i can say is the setup will weigh no more than 24kg (possible 20kg)
[/quote]

Er ... I calculated the 4x12 cab as weighing around 50 kilos with ferrites. Let's crudely assume the 1x15 weighs half that. So there's about 25 kilos. Maybe half all that again with neos?

Then there's the weight of a 200w tube amp - an Orange ADB weighs 26 kilos (57 lbs). A Marshall VBA weighs 36 kilos (80 lbs).

The proposed 4x12 perspex cab [i]alone[/i] would weigh circa 24 kilos even with neodymiums. (Four neo speakers = 8 kilos. 13 sq foot of half inch plexi at 1.3 kilos per sq foor = 17 kilos). Add in a 200w head and we're talking maybe 51 kilos.

Leaving aside attempts to estimate the weight of a rig off some line drawings and no electronic specs - with all respect* how can an entire plexiglass valve bass rig weigh less than certain 2x12 lightweight cabs?

It just seems we're being asked to assess the prospects of a valve bass rig on no more information than that it's made out of perspex.

I mean, what kind of tone stack? The general circuitry? Output trannies? Choice of valves? Impedance? All stuff we ask ourselves when we look at a valve head. We know nothing.

*[size=2]in case I'm accused by someone here of being condescendin[/size][size=2]g[/size]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1424788279' post='2700473']
You might be better off looking at the practice amp or small combo end of the spectrum, there's a lot of smallish black boxes out there and this would certainly stand out.
[/quote]

That's the ticket! A very positive suggestion and a good idea. Perspex SS practice combo. Maybe it could change colour along with the notes. People would buy that.

Edited February 24, 2015 by skankdelvar

[Musky]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1424808146' post='2700731']
That's the ticket! A very positive suggestion and a good idea. Perspex SS practice combo. [b]Maybe it could change colour along with the notes[/b]. People would buy that.
[/quote]
Now there's a cool idea. Perhaps a tuner function where the LEDs light up the whole amp. Or something along the lines of the strobe tuning on the old Korg DTR2000.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Musky

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1424809960' post='2700773']
Now there's a cool idea. Perhaps a tuner function where the LEDs light up the whole amp. Or something along the lines of the strobe tuning on the old Korg DTR2000.
[/quote]

Quick, Musky! Submit a patent application and license the idea back to the OP.

That's how business works, see.

[timmo]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1424808146' post='2700731']



That's the ticket! A very positive suggestion and a good idea. Perspex SS practice combo. Maybe it could change colour along with the notes. People would buy that.
[/quote] If it worked and the price was right, i would buy it

[pete.young]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1424808146' post='2700731']


The proposed 4x12 perspex cab [i]alone[/i] would weigh circa 24 kilos even with neodymiums. (Four neo speakers = 8 kilos. 13 sq foot of half inch plexi at 1.3 kilos per sq foor = 17 kilos). Add in a 200w head and we're talking maybe 51 kilos.

[/quote]

Skank I think you are slightly out of whack because he was talking about a 4x10 not a 4x12. Even so it would be a struggle. I own what i think is the lightest ever 4x12, tech sound system nds412 and that is 27kg.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1424815484' post='2700884']
Skank I think you are slightly out of whack because he was talking about a 4x10 not a 4x12.
[/quote]

Oops, my bad. There are indeed 1x12, 1x15 and 4x10 options

OK, 'lightweight' valve head with cunning transformers and a 1x12 all wrapped up in thin plexi - 24 kilos / 50 lbs? I'll put my hands up.

Edited February 25, 2015 by skankdelvar

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1424808146' post='2700731']
*[size=2]in case I'm accused by someone here of being condescendin[/size][size=2]g[/size]

[/quote]

I needed to put my glasses on to read the small print there

I was only trying to stick up for the guy, having done similar projects at uni I felt compelled to jump in.

Maybe daunting is a better word than condescending, Skank.

Edited February 25, 2015 by stingraybassman

[redbandit599]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I can see a niche or bespoke market for particular bands. Why not do soemthing a bit more interesting with the lights though? Maybe use some LEDs with DMX linking the cabs. Guitar and bass cabs strobing away in sync would look really different.[/font]

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1424863099' post='2701226']
IMaybe daunting is a better word than condescending, Skank.
[/quote]

T'is to be regretted if I seem daunting because that's not my intention. As Beer said above it's better to be realistic and questioning than give someone a pat on the head and walk away thinking 'That'll never work but I'm not going to upset him'.

I mean, I could've just posted 'Nah!' and left it at that but I found myself researching the weight per sq foot of plexiglass for a given thickness, the gross weight of comparable amps and cabs; sundry other stuff.

I even popped over to see a guy today who builds and repairs valve amps and had a ten minute chat with him about the project. He's been doing this for about thirty years. His reaction was broadly the same as most here:

Why plexiglass when it only adds weight? You'd need an array of toroidal transformers if the bigger amps are to be movable. And there's only one guy in the UK (to his knowledge) who's built a 500w valve amp and that's John Chambers who was only able to do it because he wound his own transformers rather than stack up a line of proprietary jobs with all the attendant difficulties.

I didn't [i]have[/i] to drive over to Somerset to talk about the OP's ideas but I did anyway.

Frankly, I think the loosely defined scope of the OP's project is far more daunting than I could [i]ever[/i] be. And while it's nice to be kindly-spoken and 'encouraging' it's no kindness to let someone wander off a cliff out of a desire to be polite.

Edited February 25, 2015 by skankdelvar

[Caledonian_Enterprises]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1424733932' post='2699953'] What are those figures for - the 1x12? Presumably the SPL figures are 1w/1m with the higher one for the 4x10, although it seems to be a bit higher than I'd expect. I like the concept (and judging by the photos others have posted there are bands that like the idea too), but I can only really see two markets for this sort of product: Touring bands and home users. The touring bands will have their equipment roadcased and the roadies to shift it, and may well just be using for show with other monitoring options. It's also likely they'll already have a preference for the type of gear they're using. Home users would probably be happier using something much smaller and this really points towards a practice amp or small combo. So while I think the idea is good I think you're targeting the wrong market. You might find more purchase by offering a custom cabinet service for the touring musicians, building them to rehouse their amps/speakers, and/or building lower cost practice amps. [/quote]

The sound range will depend on which setup is used, the concept is meant to be something innovative and different to anything on todays market, this concept will be designed to be portable but have huge sound. i was looking for information on how to upgrade or add to this product in order to appeal to a larger market, things such as covering the cab in a mesh to prevent scratching, changing plexi colors, lighting controlled by music, silent recording feature etc. then a specific market could be targeted.

cheers

[Caledonian_Enterprises]

[quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1424775286' post='2700224'] I feel like someone should stick up for the OP a little bit here...... I'm guessing the design and prototyping of the Amp will be accompanied with a report/dissertation, half of the experience is finding the issues. This isn't a highly polished concept with sleek marketing and a huge R&D budget, this is someone trying to think outside the box (no pun intended), and do a project with some substance for university. A bit of open mindedness would help from everyone, he isn't going to harm anyone! (insert back related joke) [/quote]


[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1424905786' post='2701896'] T'is to be regretted if I seem daunting because that's not my intention. As Beer said above it's better to be realistic and questioning than give someone a pat on the head and walk away thinking 'That'll never work but I'm not going to upset him'. I mean, I could've just posted 'Nah!' and left it at that but I found myself researching the weight per sq foot of plexiglass for a given thickness, the gross weight of comparable amps and cabs; sundry other stuff. I even popped over to see a guy today who builds and repairs valve amps and had a ten minute chat with him about the project. He's been doing this for about thirty years. His reaction was broadly the same as most here: Why plexiglass when it only adds weight? You'd need an array of toroidal transformers if the bigger amps are to be movable. And there's only one guy in the UK (to his knowledge) who's built a 500w valve amp and that's John Chambers who was only able to do it because he wound his own transformers rather than stack up a line of proprietary jobs with all the attendant difficulties. I didn't [i]have[/i] to drive over to Somerset to talk about the OP's ideas but I did anyway. Frankly, I think the loosely defined scope of the OP's project is far more daunting than I could [i]ever[/i] be. And while it's nice to be kindly-spoken and 'encouraging' it's no kindness to let someone wander off a cliff out of a desire to be polite. [/quote]

Thanks for the comments guys, this is a field that i am not familiar with, i am a spark and engineer to trade. however, this project concept is something different to whats available todays market and innovative (it wont be everyones taste. Engineered properly it will meet the stated weight and price). The setup is constructed or unbreakable polycarbonate in order to show the valve glow, show something different, allow for LED controllable lighting and perhaps be a talking point. Its worth noting that the point was to construct it to be small yet boast massive power.
The design pictures that were posted are very basic as CAD and finite element analysis is still being completed on this model but this forum was to see what interest there was for this type of concept and how to improve it to make it more appealing (mentioned above).
I realise i would have to wind 500w valve amp transformers myself, but thanks for asking your mate skankdelvar.

Cheers guys

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Caledonian_Enterprises' timestamp='1424729086' post='2699859']
Thanks for discussing with your band , its still early stages as you can see, all i can say is the setup will weigh no more than 24kg (possible 20kg) and the sound range will be between 94db and 113db. if you have any other contacts then id welcome their thoughts too. What band are you in??
[/quote]

I'm a bit worried about the lack of any science here. Sound range doesn't have any meaning really. You'd need to be able to produce peaks of 120dB to keep the bass as loud as the drummer, a minimum requirement giving you an average sound level of around 100dB. If these were sensitivity figures @1W and 1m then you won't achieve 113db without a substantial horn design. The mass figures don't seem feasible either. The Eminence Beta 10 for example weighs 3.1 kg so that is 12.4kg for a 4x10. which leaves you with 11.6kg for the rest of the cab. The density of perspex is 1.16g/cm3 meaning your 4x10 will weigh 25kg if you make it out of 15mm material. the Youngs moduluus of perspex is between 1.8-3.1 GPa, birch ply 13.8GPa so ply is many times stiffer so you'd need to increase the thickness of the cab by using a lot more perspex if you want the same performance. Speaker cabinet sizes are matched to the drivers and your sketch designs are about 120l. This is reasonable for a 4x10 but huge for a 1x15 by modern standards, more like a 70's design. For a 1x12 it's silly. in any case you'd be looking to match your cab to the speaker you chose not starting with a cab size and looking for a speaker to go in it, unless looks count for everything and sound very little.

Without wishing to damp your enthusiasm there's also the cost. A sheet of perspex is going to cost a lot. £721 for a 3x2m sheet of 15mm acrylic on eBay. You would get two cabs out of that if you are lucky. So a 4x10 is going to come in at £240 for the speakers and £360 for the perspex plus labour, distribution costs, and a profit for the retailer. You'd want the materials costs to be about 1/3 of the retail price at most so you are looking at a retail price of probably about £2000 for just one 4x10 adding in the cost of your lights. If you try to make these it will blow your student loan/whatever in no time, not to mention the 1000's of hours it will take you to prototype.

Sorry this looks like a demolition job but I really wouldn't want you to risk all this time expense and effort on something that can't really be made to work.

If this is a paper design exercise and it won't matter that you conclude the project is impractical

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Caledonian_Enterprises' timestamp='1424918186' post='2701985']
Thanks for the comments guys, this is a field that i am not familiar with, i am a spark and engineer to trade. however, this project concept is something different to whats available todays market and innovative (it wont be everyones taste. Engineered properly it will meet the stated weight and price). The setup is constructed or unbreakable polycarbonate in order to show the valve glow, show something different, allow for LED controllable lighting and perhaps be a talking point. Its worth noting that the point was to construct it to be small yet boast massive power.
[/quote]

You keep saying it will meet the stated weight, size and price, yet it's hard to see how it can.
Just to clarify, do you mean £600 for the 1x12" setup including 200 watt valve amp as the original post suggests? The only high powered (>100w) valve amp on the market that approximates that price point is the Bugera BVV3000, and that's made to a well established design which required little R&D, does nothing to address the size/weight issue, uses conventional metal chassis and wood housing and is made in China by a corporation with their own manufacturing plant, distribution network and massive economies of scale.
Factor in custom hand-wound transformers, small-scale UK manufacturing and a case built from unconventional and expensive materials and your proposals seem like pure fantasy. It's very easy to [i]say[/i] it will be smaller, cheaper and more powerful than anything on the market, but again, how will you do this?

[Musky]

I'm guessing this is a business/marketing degree rather than an engineering one, so unless it's getting marked by someone who understands speaker design he should be able to get away with the drawbacks of the design. The costings are more problematic, although it would again depend on who's marking it and how the work is assessed. If the guy happens to be a guitarist (for instance), has some experience in related manufacture or does some basic research it might be noticed things seem a bit on the cheap side, but otherwise if the figures given are accepted at face value things will be fine. If I'm understanding things correctly this is primarily a degree project - it's the process that's important. Others here might have some experience of similar Uni projects and have some insights into how they are assessed, but otherwise I'm going to assume the OP is best placed to know how the assessment is carried out.

It's also worth noting that changing your original idea is no bad thing. I've no experience of taking a product to market, but I've seen enough of The Apprentice to realise that ignoring market research often ends unpleasantly.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Musky

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1424941817' post='2702088']...Youngs moduluus of perspex is between 1.8-3.1 GPa, birch ply 13.8GPa so ply is many times stiffer so you'd need to increase the thickness of the cab by using a lot more perspex if you want the same performance....
[/quote]

[pedantry] Not disputing the figures, but there are other ways of increasing stiffness than simply increasing thickness, such as ribbing, or corrugation; more still are available. Just sayin' [/pedantry]

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1424986082' post='2702745']
...there are other ways of increasing stiffness than simply increasing thickness
[/quote]

F'narr.

[3below]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1424941817' post='2702088']
I'm a bit worried about the lack of any science here........
[/quote]

I am having the same thoughts here, and the words Materials Science / Engineering keep popping into my mind. Somewhere 'unbreakable polycarbonate' has been mentioned by the OP. I can only hope the end users do not put any stickers on the amp or cabinets. Solvent cracking is well known, it can be quite spectacular. Google motorcycle helmets and solvents. if you want a home example get a PES (PolyEtherSulphone) microwave cook dish and apply nail varnish remover (acetone).

I offer my comments as critical constructive support, it is what we get on BC with the diverse range of knowledge and skills within it.

Edited February 26, 2015 by 3below