big rob Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hi All, Looking for some advice really, i have been playing bass a long time and find that in practice and live i sometimes loose the bass in the mix. I have an RH450 and Rs210 and 2x12 cabs. Its not always an issues but even in the same practice room it seems to change from week to week. There 2 guitar players in the band and a drummer but is there any tips on how to set up the band in a practice room with a PA to get the best results and any amp settings i can look at to cut through, have boosted the mid but all seems to be getting muddy and definition seems to go. Would placing the amps in a certain way help and how do we level properly, sometimes it just sounds like the guitars are taking all my frequency, last nights sound with my stingray sounded really poor to me, I had brought the 2x10 to try and get things closer to the ears and thought i had hit the nail on the head then the next week i seem to be back to muddy and can hardly hear the bass (under half way on amp volume wise). Thanks for the help in advance Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mep Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Boosting the low mids is an option that comes up when thise is asked. It worked for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 If you dont already do this, maybe try raising the amplifier so its not pointing all the sound to your feet? Do one or both the guitarists have bassy guitar tones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big rob Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I have the 2 tc cabs so the top on is close to the ears, i think the guitarists must be pushing too much on my frequency. when they stop the volume of the bass is nearly too loud then, will have to ask them to drop the volume. Any ideas on how to set the room up should we set up in a line like at a gig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 What kind of volume do you practice at? Do you set up as you would live or do you face each other at all? If your guitarists have a 'big' sound (e.g. Les Paul into Marshall) they can hog a lot of the frequencies. You may need to cut some Lows and boost the Mids to be heard in the mix. All from my own experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Cut nearly all the bass and you should be able to hear yourself better. You'll get a great tone and increase the headroom available to you since the amp isn't using all of it's energy pushing massive lows out of the speakers. Worth pointing out that the RH450 isn't a massively powerful amp anyway. I'm sure many people use them in two guitar bands but some bands are just louder! It could just be that you're struggling to be heard amongst the din of two guitarists and a loud drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 [quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1425482446' post='2707791'] If your guitarists have a 'big' sound (e.g. Les Paul into Marshall) they can hog a lot of the frequencies. [/quote] Agreed. I have two guitarists in my band, but because they both use rather clean, jangly "Fender" type sounds, there is a lovely big sonic space for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Funny how we're always the ones who have to think about EQing, isn't it? The above points about "big" guitar sounds may be the key to it: see how high your guitarists have their bass controls set, and see whether you can roll some of that off. Guitarists (as a heavily generalised rule-of-thumb) seem to be particularly bad at not realising that what sounds good in their bedroom doesn't necessarily sound good in a band setting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Absolutely Conan. Used to have a rhythm guitarist who insisted on playing a LP through a Marshall and it just bludgeoned the sound to death. Eventually I got him to play my Telecaster (admittedly with humbuckers) and the difference was amazing in a 'heavenly' way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Get there ten minutes early, and get a sound you like, and also get a volume that is what you perceive as about right for rehearsal level. When your first guitar player arrives get him to set up, and check how it sounds with him, if it suddenly sounds worse, at least now know, and hopefully sort it between the two of you.Do the same thing with the second guitar player, and see how it goes with him, and adjust accordingly. Then get the two of em to play together without you and see how that sounds...then join in yourself. When, piece by piece you are all listening to each other, and you agree it's ok...add the drummer and individually have a quick bash with him, and if that sounds right all play together. Trying to fix a sound when you are all in at once is impossible, and as usual, each band member can't believe they are the cause of it if its not right....especially if its boomy or muddy...' It has to be the bass player!!!!!'..... Take ten minutes to think it thru, and have a good rehearsal, or suffer two or three hours of misery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadofsix Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Until the guitarists agree to actively work with you to "lock in" on a good practice sound and an even better live sound, and be disciplined about not noodling with their sound, you may be wasting your time. It sounds like when you get a good sound, the guitarists are hearing room for a change in their sounds and the muddiness cycle begins again. The guitarists may not even be aware that they are causing the sonic problem. It's going to require a "team effort" to lock into a "team sound." Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Do you rehearse in a circle? IME in that format the bass player is usually standing opposite the guitarist with the amp blasting right at him. Do you have a clean sound? The RH450's natural tone is rounder and less defined. That might cause you to disappear into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big rob Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Thanks all for the advice, The stingray seems to suffer more than my Bill Nash PB57 but i really want to make my stingray work. I will have to take control next band practice and look at amp settings and volume levels so we all have the correct amount of room. just seems like we are all in the same frequency, however I can hear every note of theirs and just a muddy boom from me trying to get over their frequency stealing. Its starting to depress me trying to adjust to cut through all the time while they watch me and don't bother even touching there amps. Cheers Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 There is only so much space to occupy and a 2 gtr band is a bad place to start unless they can play together and stay out each others way. That takes a degree of sense and if they can't avoid each others space, they're going to be oblivious to yours as well, most very likely. Simple test...start with drums playing straights 8's on the bass and you should be sitting well with well tuned drums.. and then invite the gtrs in... most gtrs will fail at this point and you'll lose the bass mix there.. You either ALL realise what the problem is and sort it or you try and educate them... and when they go back to their own old habits, you accept they are too selfish to play with and you move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I`ve found that, competing with said Les Paul & Marshall (tho only a 212) that bass flat, boosted highs, mid-cut at around 300/400, and enough drive to be noticed when the strings are hit hard on my Precision works for me. But then I am in a punk band so maybe this way of eq-ing isn`t for everyone. But, be it hi-mids or treble, I find that however clanky/nasally it sounds on its own, that`s a sure way of being heard in the mix. Get a nice rich bassy sound on its own, and usually it disappears into a warm sludge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobystig Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Turn the guitarist bass right down and then super glue or snap the knobs off I explained the sonic spectrum to our guitarist and he took it all in and we worked well with me to find areas we could both occupy, we were looking for a second guitarist, but once we had sorted our sound it was clearly obvious we didn't need one, I just add a bit of distortion to the top or use the dual rig guitar amp setup I have to fill the gap when he is soloing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sykilz Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I run a TC electronic BH500 into a BC4x10, so not too dissimilar to your rig, and my guitarists are WAY loud, rhythm guy goes into a 4x12 Marshall, has a deep sound, and lead has an Engl valve head into 2x12 which is face meltingly loud and Van Halen like in tone, and I find that the best EQ on my amp is to boost the bass and low mids a bit, forget about treble, not gonna be heard, BUT, the bass ( guitar ) needs to have a big deep tight sound to work, my Yamaha BB414 works perfectly, my Fender Jazz less so. Some venues the Fender is o.k but needs more bass added, the Yammy just seems to sit sonically in the right place, we often get compliments that the mix of our sound is really well spread, even though we usually just turn up and play without much setting up! I guess that sonically I'm getting below the guitars...? Hope some of this helps! Just seen Lozzs reply, seems pretty much the opposite works for him....doh...!!!!! Edited March 4, 2015 by sykilz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big rob Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Thanks again for the advice and the knowledge that i am not on my own with this issue. Drums and bass sounded tight and great last night before the guitarists plugged in.... then hay ho the bass has gone. It's time for a serious look at this issue now, no more. Cheers Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Well it sounds that the problem is with the guitars eq/drive/reverb etc. If they`re willing to try it, get them to reduce bass, gain and reverb all by one, say from 7 down to 6 on each. See where you are from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barneyg42 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Also look at what they are playing, do they just mimic each other or do they play separate lines or chords? If they play the same chord inversions you might as well have only one guitard 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1425490099' post='2707879'] Well it sounds that the problem is with the guitars eq/drive/reverb etc. If they`re willing to try it, get them to reduce bass, gain and reverb all by one, say from 7 down to 6 on each. See where you are from there. [/quote] It is down to the sounds they have and they way they play... Two LP's..?? WTF..!! it will be a fight...as will any gtr with humbuckers and a thick sound. If there are two gtrs in the band, I like to see if they bring along a compatible gtrs.. and whether they even contemplate or think about it.. and then how they actually play..? I can't think why a band would pick two gtrs who play in the same style and use the same sort of sound... but there you go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Sounds like you have two self centred guitarists, who are selfish, uncompromising, and complete cavemen when it comes to understanding that the whole of the band are equally responsible for the sound you all produce whether it's good, bad or indifferent. If they understood that volume does not equate to skill, or audience enjoyment, they might start to understand that control and the right thing at the right time is the real skill that they seem lacking in. I have had it for years,this misguided belief that the bass player and or drummer are responsible for all the crap that goes wrong at the lower frequencies.... They would both probably pass out if you took all their pedals away, and gave them an acoustic guitar each. If they can't hear that something is wrong, or they do admit this, but think they have no part in its cause or resolution, then you need to tell them to get back to school, while you find some musicians who do 'get it'. This is not a rant...it's just a Grounhog Day that all bass players have to live in, and it really grinds my gears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 +1 The problem with inexperienced or just plain selfish guitarists is that they play on their own and get a sound they like, and then think they should sound the same when they play in a band context. Two of them exhibiting the same problem in the one band would drive me to get the wire cutters out. I have the same issue when explaining to keys/piano players who insist on playing left hand bass parts. It always seems to come as a complete surprise when I tell them there is only one bass player in this band!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Well said Chris....Keyboard players playing block chords on the left hand side of the damned things should be taken to The Tower...But that's another story... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I been doing this for about 45 years. Here's my spin on the issue. To many variables to worry much about it. You could use the same amp, same amp position and settings and sound great at rehearsal and come back the next day without changing a thing and be disappointed in your sound. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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