What one on top?

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1426518533' post='2718737']
Because not all of us have the luxury of being to order an entire set-up in one go. Sometimes we replace one cab at a time (from what is available new or second-hand) and then maybe don't get on with the matching amp... so that gets sold/traded and so on.

Many of us have the "cobbled together" set ups.
[/quote]

I tried out mine in context so knew how to build up what I needed...even if I took about a year
to put the final pieces together..

[Conan]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1426518704' post='2718744']
What I've never been able to figure out is, if the traditional given is smaller speakers for high and top end, why do guitarists use 12's?
[/quote]

So they can set really bassy tones and compete with us bassists for sonic space!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1426518704' post='2718744']
There's no reason why the 115 wouldn't have more top end than the 410. Billy Sheehan purposely uses 15's to run only top end and 410's for lows. That big neck pickup on his bass just runs through the 410's he uses.

What I've never been able to figure out is, if the traditional given is smaller speakers for high and top end, why do guitarists use 12's?
[/quote]

Because they think they are bass players and some use too much bass.
A 2x12 and powersoak is as much as most gtrs need.... IMO. but I'm pleased
when they turn up with a 112 for a small gig. 212 for a bigger stage.
I'm always bemused when bands don't consider or even know what else they
are playing with...

[stevie]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1426452561' post='2718214']
2x10 on the top.

From a mechanical perspective it's far more stable and from an audio perspective it's easier to hear the higher frequencies if they're not round your ankles.
[/quote]

This.

You'll normally hear much more top end from a 2 x 10 than from a 15 because of the dispersion characteristics of the larger driver. A 10 starts to "beam" about half an octave higher than a 15. This is especially true when you're standing close to the cab, which many of us have to do for various reasons. So, for greater definition, put the 2 x 10 on top. A 4 x 10 is a slightly different kettle of fish, by the way.

If you can't hear what I'm talking about, you may not have know what to listen for. Try it and all will be revealed.

[ras52]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426519001' post='2718749']
I'm always bemused when [s]bands[/s] guitarists don't consider or even know what else they
are playing with...
[/quote]

Fixed?

[JTUK]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1426521345' post='2718784']
Fixed?
[/quote]

No, not really because you have to factor in keys and other monitoring as well...and whether
that backline is going to have to do the job out front..
To avoid a lot of this, we sat down and went thro compatible sounds and how it should work
together, The breakthru was the gtr knowing he needed less bass when you have keys AND bass
to clutter up the sound. That is probably one of the main reasons why gtrs don't want a keyboard
in the band.. but it also needs the keys to know what to do with their left hand...

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1426521302' post='2718782']
This.

You'll normally hear much more top end from a 2 x 10 than from a 15 because of the dispersion characteristics of the larger driver. A 10 starts to "beam" about half an octave higher than a 15. This is especially true when you're standing close to the cab, which many of us have to do for various reasons. So, for greater definition, put the 2 x 10 on top. A 4 x 10 is a slightly different kettle of fish, by the way.

If you can't hear what I'm talking about, you may not have know what to listen for. Try it and all will be revealed.
[/quote]

Doesn't a side-by-side 2x10 start beaming at a lower frequency than a single 15 in the horizontal plane, due to the wider radiating area? A 2x10 cab will have better dispersion in the vertical plane than a single 15, but how applicable is that when it is stacked on top of another full-range cab?

[stevie]

Yes to the first question. Perfectly applicable (to the second). You'll get cancellation between the drivers but you'll get that whether the 2x10 or the 15 is on top. In terms of hearing yourself with a traditional 1x15, 2x10 setup, vertical dispersion is more important than horizontal because your ears are normally above the cabs - unless you're a goodly distance away, when the angle diminishes.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1426525840' post='2718876']
Yes to the first question. Perfectly applicable (to the second). You'll get cancellation between the drivers but you'll get that whether the 2x10 or the 15 is on top. In terms of hearing yourself with a traditional 1x15, 2x10 setup, vertical dispersion is more important than horizontal because your ears are normally above the cabs - unless you're a goodly distance away, when the angle diminishes.
[/quote]

But isn't the vertical dispersion for a stack of full-range cabs determined by the total height of the array, rather than the individual cabs within it? I am not quite seeing how there could be a predictable difference either way round.

[JTUK]

Not sure why bass players get too bent out of shape for dispersion.... it's more critical for higher frequencies, IMO.

[stevie]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1426526388' post='2718893']
But isn't the vertical dispersion for a stack of full-range cabs determined by the total height of the array, rather than the individual cabs within it? I am not quite seeing how there could be a predictable difference either way round.
[/quote]

That's true when you're in front of and some distance away from the speakers, in the audience say, but not so much when your ears are above the cabs. Standing 1 metre in front of a 15"/2x10" stack, a 1.5 kHz signal coming from the 15" will be around 15dB quieter than the same signal coming from the tens, which is not enough to interfere (and reduce dispersion). You might as well have the box that has the clearer HF nearer your ears.

[Tdw]

i would say that unless one of your cabs is really significantly more biased towards the high frequencies and likely to beam alot (in which case it should go on top) it doesnt really matter much.

[EBS_freak]

Try them however you like and stick with the arrangement you like.

[7tenths]

My 2x10 weighs more than my 1x15, so is a more stable base with the 2x10 on the bottom.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1426516328' post='2718691']
I've tried it both ways. Both cabs, on their own, are quite different. But when you put 'em one on top of the other - it's real hard to tell the difference ..... if there is any real difference to hear. Depends where you stand. If you are standing right beside them - then you can hear the different cabs. Take yourself more than three yards away - and they sound like one combined bass sound. To me ................. and I don't really care what so called experts who know a lot more about me and can say "says it all" say. That's what I hear and that's what I think.
[/quote]

You'll get floor coupling with the lower of the cabs - whether that makes any significant difference in this case, I don't know. You could experiment - put them one way round and play through just the 1x15, then just the 2x10, then swap them over and see if the sound changes noticably.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426518014' post='2718723']
See, I'd dispute that as otherwise why have 2 cabs... ?

[/quote]

in some cases it is to get a lower impedence and get the full power from the amp, i know mine works that way

[bigjohn]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1426552830' post='2719346']
Try them however you like and stick with the arrangement you like.
[/quote]

Is the only correct answer.

Speaker size is only one factor in many that influence the how a cab sounds.

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1427724279' post='2733464']
in some cases it is to get a lower impedence and get the full power from the amp, i know mine works that way
[/quote]

Nah, you don't get a bigger sound from using more power, you get a bigger sound from using more cab. Try using 8 ohm cabs and 4 ohm variants of the same cab, the 4 ohm cab, although using more power, won't sound louder. Just more likely to overheat your amp!

Furthermore, having an amp than is rated for lower impedance is okay, if you're into that carrying needless weight around thing . Myself, I prefer a powerful amp rated for higher impedance and cabs to match. The transformers are lighter, they generate less heat and so are smaller and lighter as a whole.

Edited March 30, 2015 by bigjohn

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1427725099' post='2733483']
Is the only correct answer.

Speaker size is only one factor in many that influence the how a cab sounds.



Nah, you don't get a bigger sound from using more power, you get a bigger sound from using more cab. Try using 8 ohm cabs and 4 ohm variants of the same cab, the 4 ohm cab, although using more power, won't sound louder. Just more likely to overheat your amp!

Furthermore, having an amp than is rated for lower impedance is okay, if you're into that carrying needless weight around thing . Myself, I prefer a powerful amp rated for higher impedance and cabs to match. The transformers are lighter, they generate less heat and so are smaller and lighter as a whole.
[/quote]

yeah i get that more cabs (speakers) is going to be louder but for mine and others amps adding another cab does give the full power of the amp, i wouldnt have just one cab that takes the amp to full power as that would close the option of adding another cab should you need to. So far i get enough volume for where i play with one cab

[bigjohn]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1427726103' post='2733498']
yeah i get that more cabs (speakers) is going to be louder but for mine and others amps adding another cab does give the full power of the amp, i wouldnt have just one cab that takes the amp to full power as that would close the option of adding another cab should you need to. So far i get enough volume for where i play with one cab
[/quote]

I know what mean you but "full power" doesn't really mean anything useful. An amp driving say 2x4Ohm cabs using 500W won't sound any louder than an amp driving 2x8Ohm cabs @ 250W.

The only thing that using the full power of the amp is doing is drawing more power and running hotter.

Edited March 30, 2015 by bigjohn

[lowhand_mike]

every day is a school day

i was always under the impression that as 2 cabs move more air than one they would be inherently louder and with the extra power more so

Edited March 30, 2015 by lowhand_mike

[bigjohn]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1427728638' post='2733545']
every day is a school day

i was always under the impression that as 2 cabs move more air than one they would be inherently louder and with the extra power more so
[/quote]

Yeah, the two cabs more than one. The extra power might technically make them a little louder, depending on the amp and the cabs, even if it did, you'd struggle to tell by ear.

I once rewired some 4Ohm 2x10s so they were 16Ohm. I didn't notice a drop in volume, but the power transistors in my amp stopped blowing

Edited March 30, 2015 by bigjohn

[jezzaboy]

The only reason for using 2 cabs was to get the full power from my Ashdown head. I will try the 2 of them at the next rehearsal and see if anyone, or me, hears any difference.

[JTUK]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1427724279' post='2733464']
in some cases it is to get a lower impedence and get the full power from the amp, i know mine works that way
[/quote]

Wasn't talking about it being an impedence issue tho...
My answer related to the sound issue.

[zero9]

When you raise a cab off the floor, you'll lose some of the bass response, as it's de-coupled from the floor. Whichever cab is on top will thus sound 'brighter' compared to the other.

[Conan]

[quote name='zero9' timestamp='1427747996' post='2733907']
When you raise a cab off the floor, you'll lose some of the bass response, as it's de-coupled from the floor. Whichever cab is on top will thus sound 'brighter' compared to the other.
[/quote]

But will the upper cab not be "coupled" to the lower cab, which is coupled to the floor? The whole stack effectively functioning as a single cab?

Edited March 31, 2015 by Conan