tks.se Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1426690470' post='2720846'] I wanna know the answers [i][b]NOW[/b][/i]!!!! [/quote] Ok, let's do this today. First off, let's look how the bass players in Sweden voted after the test: Cabinet A : Ecxept for two people who thought it was a 12, everyone thought it was a 10. So 93% 10", 7% 12". Cabinet B: Two people voted 12", the rest 15". 93% 15", 7% 10". Cabinet C: Two votes for 15", tvo votes for 10", the rest voted 12": 85% 12", 7.5% 10", 7.5% 15". Most people thought it was 10-15-12. Same goes for the votes here, right now almost 70% have voted for that exact combination, counting other votes towards the same speaker sizes: 69% thought A = 10" 83% thought B = 15" 73% thought C = 12" So, the Swedes were a little bit more decided on the 10-15-12 option. Here are the results: This shocked many of the Swedes. Even though everything (including removing the fronts from the cabinets) was done in plain sight, a few was of the opinion that the cabinets must have been switched. Magnus who did the playing was extra shocked. He was so certain that cabinet A was a 10"-cabinet, becase he thought it was way too bright (he didn't look to happy while slapping with that cabinet connected). Two people here on Basschat laid down correct votes. Zero of the swedes got it right. All of this was the main reason for the test. As WoT so elegantly put it: [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1426859466' post='2722817'] ..which is the purpose of this thread, really. It's challenging the preconceptions that many of us have. [/quote] Exactly. This test was specifically designed for everyone who thinks that a 15" always has a certain tone, or saying "going from a 1x15 to a 4x10 cabinet is a great way to get a punchier tone with more mids". It all depends on the cabinet/drivers in each specific case. If you didn't know it before, you know it now, speaker size doesn't say what kind of tone you get. If you think that many say 4x10 cabinets sound alike, thats more the result of the designers trying to achieve similar results with the cabinets/drivers they are using, not something that's "built in" to the size of the speaker cone. [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1426755354' post='2721494'] But the absolutely enormous elephant in the room for me is that you haven't said how the hell the cabs were mic'ed up, and that can have the most enormous effect on the sound that we are now hearing[/quote] The microphone position was the same, but of course it's hard to get a completely fair test. The dispersion is different for each cabinet, and while we did the test "live", people sitting far to the side of course didn't hear the exact thing as the ones sitting straight ahead, but in this case, the differences between the cabinets were big enough to get through any way. A large majority though the cabinet with the deepest lows and the least highs must have been the 15" while the cabinet extending the furthest into the highs must be the 10s. [quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1426751690' post='2721457'] I've no idea, as I believe drivers don't have a specific sound based on diameter. [/quote] Exactly! Maybe a "I don't know" would have been a good addition. [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1426780272' post='2721882'] If one wanted to one could measure the same cab with the mic in three positions, get three different results, then pose the same poll question and see how many saw through the ruse. [/quote] This was a bit of a ruse from the start. The main bit was done with audience, this thread was just an attempt to get the people who couldn't attend to get a glimpse of what we did, so the recording thing wouldn't have been as well received live, probably works better online. Another idea for the live part was to have say three different 12" cabinets made to have very different frequency responses, and let people guess freely between 10/12/15, and most would probably guessed one of each (15="deep", 10="bright" 12="in between"), but that would just have been mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Thought it was the 10's in the 2nd sample but mildly surprised that I reversed the 15-12... need to go back and listen again. However, pleased that I stuck with my own thoughts/views based upon my experience and didn't go with 'perceptions' of what a 10/12/15 should sound like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thump Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Well it caught me out. Someone please pass the ketchup , there are socks on the menu tonight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tks.se Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 You can have loudspeker drivers of the same size with different appications. Take two different 8s: One can be a home theathre subwoofer, the other one used only for mid range. Extremely different properties, but same diameter. Some applications makes more sense then others. What you can say about different speaker sizes is that the dispersion is better the smaller the driver gets. If we only look at bass response, there is no problem in getting low frequencies from smaller drivers, as long as you have enough available surface area/cone travel for the intended application. Say headphones - no one walks around with 15" headphones "just to get proper bass". Home theathre subwoofers is another example. They often use smaller drivers than our bass cabinets, but they still extend to lower frequencies. The difference is in how loud they go (again - available surface area/cone travel). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I only went and got it bloody right! One things certain, I cannot wait to try a TKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1426704989' post='2721121'] Ooof... what a player...! [/quote] MUSIC STANDS! Clearly he's crap!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thump Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1426871088' post='2723000'] I only went and got it bloody right! One things certain, I cannot wait to try a TKS! [/quote] Agreed! single 12" for me. It's not a brand I'm familiar with , where will they be available from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='Thump' timestamp='1426871891' post='2723009'] Agreed! single 12" for me. It's not a brand I'm familiar with , where will they be available from? [/quote] I'm after the 15! BassGear is the only UK stockists currently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Since these aren't stock TKS cabs, would you be able to reveal what the drivers in each cab were? For no particular reason other than curiosity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='tks.se' timestamp='1426693725' post='2720903'] There are no cabinets with crossovers/mid range drivers (like the 1126). All cabinets have been made to be a good match for the drivers used in the test (they're all vented, different tuning frequencies, no random drivers thrown into a spare cabinet). More comments to your posts has to wait until after the results are posted. It's hard commenting further without giving too much away. What do you say, is one week about right, or should we wrap this up sooner? [/quote] What amp was used by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Just because someone can tune the cab to have this or that bias, it doesn't always mean you should. 10's as subs aren't unheard of, by any stretch, but like all things, that is never the whole story. A 'smart' guess would have been to understand this was a trick test and answer accordingly but then it doesn't matter either. People want and like stereotypes as it makes things easier. It is not how low the chassis can go, it is how high which is more useful to me and if a chassis has a 3khz limit, there is no way round getting anything more out it, The defines it more than anything, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Blimmin' eck, I got it right too! Off to buy a lottery ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Undead Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Before reading anything, I voted 15/10/12 - I was completely certain about the 10 but not 100% on the other two. Not bad though! I'm glad I got the 10 right, I love 10's so would have been annoyed if that one had been wrong haha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Well, I got them all wrong - but I'm neither surprised nor upset! An interesting test, and this thread should be made a sticky due to the huge number of times that people say they [b][i]know[/i][/b] what a certain speaker size sounds like.... they can then be referred to this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Thanks for putting together a fun test. I picked it up too late to make a fool of myself. As said the only point is that you can't really tell, which many of us knew already. If nobody could tell and we all guessed at random then 1/6 should have guessed right, a lot more than 2 people, I think what this shows is that at least with these speakers listener bias is more important than speaker size. FWIW I guessed the 10's right but thought A was the 15. My professional opinion would have been that I had a 1 in 6 chance of getting it right. Good fun though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1427096715' post='2725606'] Well, I got them all wrong - but I'm neither surprised nor upset! An interesting test, and this thread should be made a sticky due to the huge number of times that people say they [b][i]know[/i][/b] what a certain speaker size sounds like.... they can then be referred to this thread! [/quote] I don't agree as the test was designed to confuse. I say that because TKS don't currently have a 210 in their product line, iirc, and if they did, I doubt they'd make it sound like cab B... so the test was a bit of fun. What you can make a cab sound like and what you actually make it sound like can be two different things.. why use 10's that could go to 4.5khz, for example..( don't know which drivers ) and chop/choke it with a cab design. Unless TKS release it as a production cab, the test means not a lot, IMO. and if they did release it, I think they'd have a LOT of work to do around x=over points..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1427120352' post='2725939'] I don't agree as the test was designed to confuse. Unless TKS release it as a production cab, the test means not a lot, IMO. and if they did release it, I think they'd have a LOT of work to do around x=over points..?? [/quote] I think you've missed the point somewhat. The test was designed to challenge preconceptions about tone and it's relationship with speaker diameter. As such, I think it was a huge success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The test demonstrates that the any preconception of a specific diameter cone's tonal emphasis is generally overshadowed by the design of the cab it resides in, so don't bother use your ears on the cab instead. If it does what you want/need its great, if it doesn't, move along.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1427122356' post='2725995'] use your ears on the cab instead. If it does what you want/need its great, if it doesn't, move along.... [/quote] THIS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1427122481' post='2725998'] THIS! [/quote] Best get out there and try a few then... or you'll be hostage to someone else's 'preconception' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1427124483' post='2726044'] Best get out there and try a few then... or you'll be hostage to someone else's 'preconception' [/quote] Touche! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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