graphite neck relief

[40hz]

Evening BC'ers

Was always under the impression that you could get super low on graphite necks without having to tweak the truss rod. My Flea really doesn't like a low action without a fair bit of relief in the neck. Couple of questions relating to this;

1 - what on earth did people do before they started putting rods in graphite necks?! There's only so much saddle height can help

2 - it buzzes particulary bad on the A and D string, thinking it's a fret issue possibly (although they show minimal wear)

Any thoughts/musings?

Cheers!

Edit - my Jazz puts it to shame in this dept, I'm running the action, buzz free, lower than Barry White's B******s

Edited March 21, 2015 by 40hz

[Manton Customs]

How much relief are we talking?

1, Struggling! I have seen a threads with people struggling with graphite necks and no truss rod, sometimes a fret level can solve it, however if the relief measurement is larger than the amount of material that is safe to remove from the fret height then they have to remove the frets and level the fingerboard....not good!

2, Where abouts on the A and D, all frets or just a few? It could well need some fretwork, not necessarily wear, they could have never been level or a fret or two has popped up a bit under the A and D. I'd suspect the first couple of frets as you're having to run a lot of relief.

[40hz]

It's mostly concentrated around the 3-8th frets on strungs A+D. I haven't measured precisely but tried running roughly around 2-3mm to no avail. 4ish now and still quite buzzy. Thing is, when I first bought it, it was running a thicker gauge of string and didn't really do it so badly, soon as I put 40-95's it got far worse. And has remained that way even adding in relief. Odd.

[big rob]

I would really struggle to manage with a 4mm string height, must be really annoying, have you set the relief in the neck correctly using measurement? I had a very high action on my stingray and manage to get it down to just over 2mm using this method:


1: Hold down 1st fret with a capo (or wife or child like i used) and the last fret.
2: Measure the gap between the E string and the 8th fret.
3: I had no gap so had to raise it by turning the truss rod wheel to the left 1/4 of a turn.
4: Measured gap again with feeler gauge at 8th fret trying to get a 0.3mm gap, gap was 0.3 (luck).
5: String height seemed and felt high to me at 2.4mm (the suggested height by most videos on you tube).
6: Adjusted the saddles so the strings were 2mm from the fret-board at the 12th fret.

[Manton Customs]

It makes sense you are getting more buzz with light gauge strings as there is more movement in them compared to heavier gauge strings. They would have also taken some of the relief out the neck. Though if setup correctly they shouldn't be causing you any problems.

Frets 3 through 8 are where it would buzz if there was not enough relief, so doing as suggested above would be a good idea to get an accurate measurement of the relief. After removing the heavier gauge strings the neck would also have less relief and possibly a backbow. So it would make sense that your problem is actually being caused by not enough relief. A high fret or two around this area could also be causing your troubles, but check the relief first.

[40hz]

Thanks Manton! I thought the same when thinking about what frets but I guess I'm just comparing it to my Jazz subconsciously, which plays beautifully and buzz free with relatively little relief. I'll try a bit more on the modulus and report back!

Edit - also going to try to measure it in mm precisely. I could be wildly out, my eyes aren't what they used to be (only 29)

Edited March 22, 2015 by 40hz

[Manton Customs]

Sounds like a plan! Remember to capo/fret the first and last fret as Big Rob describes, this basically uses your string as a straight edge against the frets. Feel free to take a pic of this also . I'm guessing you measured your string height before, rather than relief/bow?

If it turns out your frets are the problem, it's not an expensive job to get them leveled somewhere locally, then you will be able to get it playing as well as your Jazz .

[Der JD]

After reading your post, I have to consider myself very fortunate.

I have a '91 Modulus Quantum 5-string with no truss rod. Luckily, I don't need it. It has just a slight amount of relief and I'm able to get the action very low with no problems. The neck NEVER moves and that's one thing I love about it. I never have to make any adjustments and it always feels the same.

Had a '07 Quantum as well. That one did have a truss rod but I never had to touch it.

I'm guessing that when it comes to graphite necks, if it's built right from the start and it hasn't been violently abused there should never be any problems aside from potential fret wear related issues.

[HowieBass]

This thread has me wondering how frets are levelled with a graphite neck that has a predetermined amount of relief and no truss rod installed (this is based on me believing that you need to have a level fingerboard before you can level the frets).

[40hz]

So, I came back to the Modulus last night (hectic week) and got it playing perfectly. (realised the way I was measuring before was all wrong as Manton suggests!). I used the business card method/rough measurement at the 8th fret and also allowed it to settle (I think I was too hasty before in this regard). I also had a little rejig of the saddles made sure they are level and low and Suddenly BOOM there's my Flea again!
The neck when I bought it was dead straight. Which probably worked with a heavier gauge of string creating more tension. However there is still a VERY 'slight' buzz that does remain curiously on the a+e strings so I'm definitely thinking it might need some light fret work on payday. Nethertheless it's good fun playing about with stuff and figuring things out.

Thanks for the input guys

[40hz]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1427406574' post='2730134']
This thread has me wondering how frets are levelled with a graphite neck that has a predetermined amount of relief and no truss rod installed (this is based on me believing that you need to have a level fingerboard before you can level the frets).
[/quote]

Interesting point. I never thought about that. You'd sort of have to follow the curve so to speak?

[Manton Customs]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1427406574' post='2730134']
This thread has me wondering how frets are levelled with a graphite neck that has a predetermined amount of relief and no truss rod installed (this is based on me believing that you need to have a level fingerboard before you can level the frets).
[/quote]

Glad you got it sorted 40hz

Regarding fret leveling, yes you ideally want a level fretboard to start with. Hopefully the neck should be straight after the strings are removed, it's the strings which will pull the neck and give the minimal amount of relief necessary. So in an ideal world, the strings would be removed and the neck will be straight. However it is also possible to give the fret tops them selves relief if necessary, as long as the arc is gradual it will work. Double basses often have their fingerboards prepared in this way (relief planed into the board), though I believe Graphite necks are usually built straight and to give to a certain extent with the string tension, so picking the right strings is important.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Manton Customs

[ambient]

My Quantum has a truss rod, but I've never touched it. The action is stupid low, I use very light strings too, the B is a 105, down to a 020 C.

Sounds like the frets need looking at on your bass.

[dmccombe7]

i get some fret buzz if not thru an amp or low "home" volume but it doesn't come thru the amp.
Dave