Playing in time

[2wheeler]

After more than two years on bass, I am sad to say that I cannot yet play in time. I put the metronome on and try to play along at 80bpm or so and I just can't nail those crotchets. Every now and again there's one that gets away. I don't know if it's lack of concentration, excess tension or anxiety, right hand position or what but I am getting fed up with it. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

[Dubs]

Keep practising mate…that is the only solution. Maybe try tapping out rhythms with your hands to specifically concentrate on getting your rhythm slightly tighter, but other than that it will just come with time. Some people have a much tighter natural sense of rhythm than others, but it can be learnt, so don’t give up or get too stressed about it

What you're doing already sounds good (practising with a metronome), so just keep it up and it should come gradually.

[neilb]

Try Jazz.

[Alun]

Hello.

The best advice I can give is to subdivide each beat so rather than counting 1, 2, 3, 4 count the spaces between the beats too. At 80bpm, 16th notes will work well so in your head, count 4 pulses for each beat -

1 e and a
2 e and a
3 e and a
4 e and a

If that feels weird, try a four syllable word on each beat ( bacon sandwich works quite well ). This will give you a much more consistent time reference even if you're just playing the crotchets.

Cheers
Alun

[Kiwi]

I've had this problem myself. Part of it is mental focus and absorbing yourself in the moment, but ironically you do get to a stage where you stop having to make effort and start to feel instead. When I reached that point, I found myself having to focus on what [i]kind[/i] of feel - driving/neutral/laid back. The hardest thing was learning how to play laid back, that took quite a bit of restraint.

Hang in there, play with musicians who are better than you at every opportunity and listen to recordings of yourself. I did the recording thing and it was VERY telling, couldn't hide anything then!

I was really surprised at how clearly my mental state at the time I was playing, was apparent in the timing of the notes I played. For example if I got a bit tense or apprehensive, I started playing in front of the beat. Our drummer does this as well. If I pulled off a particularly clever lick and was feeling quite pleased with myself, my playing on the subsequent notes would get very messy as I was only half focussing.

Hang in there, enjoy the process of development and get some satisfaction from your gradual improvement. If the learning isn't fun then it will probably be a lot harder to stay motivated.

There's an interesting anecdote that Kylie's former keyboardist, Steve Turner told me when he did a session with Trevor Horn. Trevor spent the morning rehearsing the band and getting them to play the tracks to a click track. He would be totally insistent that they all played perfectly on the click and at the end of each play through, he'd pick them up on various timing gaffs, missed cues (we're talking microseconds here). Towards lunchtime the musicians would gradually get more frustrated and more despondant but at lunchtime, they'd down tools and Trevor would make them something to eat.

After lunch Trevor would take them back to the studio and record them all together playing the tracks without the click. The first take was almost always the killer recording that made it onto the album. Thing was that he was trying to get them to tighten up as much as possible by making them aware of the timing beyond what they would normally be used to, and then when he removed the click track and they did the first take they'd be tight AND have all the spontaneity and life of playing the track together for the first time.

I couldn't help but be seriously impressed by the cunning of that approach.

[Jase]

Get together with a drummer that CAN keep time and practice, also try and learn counting rather than sitting there with a metronome at 80bpm...drive anybody nuts that!

[foal30]

Can the metronome help you play in time?

I think it is best to groove, which may or may not be "in time".
Try and get as much practice in with a drummer or piano player.
Playalongs are way better than metronomes.

Unless you plan to record or perform with a metronome I can't see them being much use.

[leonshelley01]

For bedroom practise a metronome is invaluable. Personally, I use a Zoom B2 as it has built in drum patterns so it is easier to practise emphasis on certain beats and different styles.

I agree practising with other musicians would be better, but unfortunately, I can't fit a drummer in my room!

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='foal30' post='265166' date='Aug 19 2008, 04:02 AM']Can the metronome help you play in time?

I think it is best to groove, which may or may not be "in time".
Try and get as much practice in with a drummer or piano player.
Playalongs are way better than metronomes.

Unless you plan to record or perform with a metronome I can't see them being much use.[/quote]

I think a metronome is an invaluable tool for improving your time.

Lots of bands use click tracks live, and most of the recording I've done has been with one.

And isn't a drummer and a metronome the same thing, just one more accurate than the other.

I found the best way to practise with one is to set the metronome to say 120bpm to start with, but only play every other beat, so essentially you're playing at 60bpm, and the metronome will be playing quavers.

Just tap your feet along with it for a few minutes, concentrate on the down beat, but be aware of the extra 'click' on the upbeat.

[foal30]

No I do not think metronome and drummer is the same thing. And I assumed that most performances will be with a drummer not a metronome, hence why one is possibly of more importance than the other. The idea of using a click track live sends shudders down my spine, and it's not much better in the studio.

Part of the charm of music is the feel or groove of the players and as I posted above I am not of the opinion that this may strictly be always "in time".

If the requirements of the piece are say 7/4 at 118bpm then yes, I do think a metronome would be of use for that specific piece. The likelihood of the performance being totally inside this tempo framework seems unlikely however.

What happens when you sort a piece at practice and your asked to step it up or worse slow it down?
The idea for me is to be able to communicate "nicely" with whoever is on the bandstand, and if that means variations in strict tempo I've got to be able to feel it. I am unconvinced a metronome can help me with this.

Playalongs however, give me the sound of the drummer, plus I get to hear the chords.I think it is more likely to develop nuance and voice using these as an exercise in timekeeping.

[6stringbassist]

The drummer and the metronome both keep time, one is usually more constant and reliable.

The trick is to get the metronome to groove, it's actually quite simple with practise.

If you can keep time with a drummer then you should be able to with a metronome and vice versa, although there is usually more going on with a drummer to listen to, and to lock in with.

If I practise a piece at a given tempo with a metronome, and live with a drummer the tempo changes, I follow, what's the problem.

The idea of a metronome, or a drum machine is as good, is to provide you with something to keep in time with, as you would a drummer, or other musician.

A lot of bands use sequencers live, and a couple of function bands I dep with use backing tracks for keyboards etc, being able to keep really good time is essential in this scenario.

[GonzoBass]

Metronome = Chinese Water Torture

[Kiwi]

Gonz! You're back! You haven't forgotten us!

[johnnylager]

[quote name='Alun' post='264793' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:16 PM']If that feels weird, try a four syllable word on each beat ( bacon sandwich works quite well ).[/quote]
Try saying 'small key beer can'.

[bigd1]

A metronome is great for practice. I do think a drum machine is just as good and is probably a little more interesting to play along to.
These are just tools to help you become a better player, in an ideal world playing with other musicians is always best but, would a room full of musicians sit playing crotchet beats while you learn to play them in time ?.
2wheeler you don't live to far from me, I have about 30years experiance as both a classical and rock/blues musician. I would be more than willing to help you with your timing etc, PM me if interested to arrange.

BIGd

Edited August 20, 2008 by bigd1

[Sibob]

Just chill out
'Feel' it!!

Si

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Sibob' post='266102' date='Aug 20 2008, 10:02 AM']Just chill out
'Feel' it!!

Si[/quote]

YEAAAAAAH! No need to practice - the Time Fairy will come and sort you out!

Drum machine or metronome. Its the same thing. The discipline you are developing is in learning to play your lines whilst LISTENING to another sound source and making the minute adjustments you need to ensure that your playing is locked in with this other sound source. You could just as easily use recordings.

[The Funk]

Better than just playing along to a metronome is recording yourself to a click track and listening back to just how sloppy your time is. The better I get, the sloppier my own playing sounds to me.

[BOD2]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='266118' date='Aug 20 2008, 10:21 AM']YEAAAAAAH! No need to practice - the Time Fairy will come and sort you out!

Drum machine or metronome. Its the same thing. The discipline you are developing is in learning to play your lines whilst LISTENING to another sound source and making the minute adjustments you need to ensure that your playing is locked in with this other sound source. You could just as easily use recordings.[/quote]

In some ways you might be better to use recordings as, in a live situation, a drummer wll rarely keep to the mechanical, artificial tempo of a metronome.

As bilbo says, the key is LISTENING.

For example, I have been recently playing around with some AC/DC tracks for amusement. If you try to set a metronome or click track to run alongside these tracks you will find that the tempo shifts, speeding up and slowing down to match the feel of the music (changing before and into a chorus, for example). I don't think anyone would deny that AC/DC are masters of the classic rock feel but to be able to play along to them you need to LISTEN and react to the tempo changes and not plough on at 123bpm because that's where the track started.

Keep on plugging away at the metronome but also try playing with others and playing along to recordings too.

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='2wheeler' post='264719' date='Aug 18 2008, 04:47 PM']I am sad to say that I cannot yet play in time.[/quote]
Are you the drummer in my old band?

[XB26354]

The point about playing in time is to internalise it - to feel the pulse inside you whether you have something to play to or not.
The reason many musicians practice with a metronome is that is a very stripped down time source.
The less source you are given, the more time you have to come up with by yourself. This develops your sense of time and feel - if you can make your lines groove and swing with a metronome clicking on beat 4 of every other bar, play on top of the beat and behind the beat and keep everything consistent with the metronome then you have good time. Drum machines or play-alongs are great for developing stylistic awareness and band playing but the time is being given to you by other musicians. It's better to be able to supply time by yourself. Musicians of all styles have been working with metronomes for a long time - if it didn't work or stopped the music from flowing it would have died out. Also bear in mind that at some point you may have to play along to a click track or with a song that is sequenced so trying to develop time by just playing with other musicians will cause you trouble sooner or later - especially if the drummer you have played with rush and drag (which is all too common).

[SteveK]

[quote]The reason many musicians practice with a metronome is that is a very stripped down time source.[/quote]
[quote]Musicians of all styles have been working with metronomes for a long time - if it didn't work or stopped the music from flowing it would have died out.[/quote]The reason metronomes have been so popular is that until relatively recently there was no alternative.

If you are playing or intend playing with a drummer, then a drum box would be far preferable and less boring. For a start, It makes practising a far more enjoyable experience - enjoyable's good, right? - and, It will give you a better idea of how you will sound in a "proper" situation.

5 minutes of, [b]Dock[/b] click click click [b]Dock[/b] click click click would make me want to put down my bass and go for a cuppa tea.

Steve

[The Funk]

The advantage of a metronome is that it's flexible. You can hear the feel of what you're trying to play on top of the clicks of the metronome.

Have any of you tried programming a shuffle or swing feel on a drum machine / MIDI editing software? Drives me nucking futs.

[XB26354]

[quote name='SteveK' post='266394' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:03 PM']The reason metronomes have been so popular is that until relatively recently there was no alternative.

If you are playing or intend playing with a drummer, then a drum box would be far preferable and less boring. For a start, It makes practising a far more enjoyable experience - enjoyable's good, right? - and, It will give you a better idea of how you will sound in a "proper" situation.

5 minutes of, [b]Dock[/b] click click click [b]Dock[/b] click click click would make me want to put down my bass and go for a cuppa tea.

Steve[/quote]
I never found a metronome to be annoying. It depends on the sound - a fairly dull click rather than an electronic beep is obviously more palatable. Playing with a drumbox or click is just fine, as long as it just gives you quarter notes. Try halving the metronome tempo and have it click on beats 2 and 4 - it swings much better. It also forces you to supply the downbeat.

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='266046' date='Aug 19 2008, 08:44 PM']Gonz! You're back! You haven't forgotten us![/quote]
How could I?
I'm usually lurking while you're all asleep over there on your side of the planet.
Always keeping one eye on the Theory and Technique page, I am...