Fender Jazz tone drop out

[dmccombe7]

I've been playing my goto Geddy Lee Jazz bass for approx 5yrs now. Nothing has changed physically on the bass since i set it up 5yrs ago ie string height, neck relief (i check regularly when changing strings) I have changed from Fender nickels to D'Addario nickel same gauge.
What i'm finding is that when i play hard i've noted the tone drops out quite a bit. Loses the bottom end quite significantly.
Not getting any significant fret buzz and string height is typically 2.5mm on E and 2 on G strings.
I run the bass full on both pick ups and tone control i vary between full and 50%.
Its as if the pick-ups are dropping out ? Playing "softly" seems ok - i play finger style with occasionally my nails to get a sharp edge when needed.
I don't notice it with other basses i have.
Its fine when at home and things a lot quieter.
I have started using an Ampeg SVT4 Pro with GAIN at 2 o'clock and tone controls virtually 12 o'clock or there abouts.
I don't get the Gain limit light coming on.
I'm using 2off Bergantino AE112 cabs

Anyone any thoughts or advice ?

Dave

[chrismuzz]

Are you using a compressor? if so, does it still do it when it is not engaged?

[dmccombe7]

Tried switching the comp off and still same but that is the perfect description of what it sounds like. Over-compression.
The Ampeg has compression too but that was turned off.

Dave

[40hz]

i used to get this, comes from playing so hard the string doesn't actually get to vibrate properly, so the note won't sound out. I cured it by playing gentler and/or raising my action. Curiously enough the only bass this has never happened on is my old Epi T-Bird. You played hard, it came right back at you.

Edit - my jazz is more suceptible to this than my other bass (I also had a Geddy Lee and was the same

Edited March 29, 2015 by 40hz

[dmccombe7]

cheers 40Hz i was hoping it was something like that and it lets me look at solutions.
I might try heavier gauge strings to see if the reduced string vibration might help.
Will take the gauge up a notch to try.
Failing that i'll need to try and play lighter i guess.

Dave

[chrismuzz]

I get a similar thing when I play P/J basses where the pole pieces stick out from the pickups... Lowering them helps! Id rather that than raise the action as that makes the tone inconsistent the further up the neck you go. I'm also going to experiment with a thumpinator because my suspicion is that the string hitting the pickups and causing insane low end noise causes the majority of the problems... Issue is I have to wait 3 weeks for my birthday til I'm allowed it!

Edited March 29, 2015 by chrismuzz

[HowieBass]

There's supposed to be a sweet spot height for the strings above the pickups; too large a string to pole distance means a weaker signal, too small a string to pole distance means the string vibration is potentially inhibited by the magnetic field. I would imagine that playing softly keeps the string vibrating in the sweet spot area all of the time whereas playing harder pushes the string away from that sweet spot so for some of the time you've got a weaker signal for the reasons I've mentioned. I've read more than once that you should let the amp do the work, turn that up so you don't have to put so much effort into playing the instrument and you might get rid of the problem.

[chrismuzz]

This is true, but playing like a clumsy oaf gives its own sound which I have never been able to get any other way!

[dmccombe7]

I usually only get this when i'm engrossed in the moment and really going for it sometimes pushing the strings too hard by sound of it.
In the past when using steelwound strings i used to burst the skin to pint it looked like Gene Simmons was playing my bass.
Now that i'm using Nickel strings its more comfortable.

I've adjusted the pick ups to the recommended height from Fender and Warwick altho i might experiment with that a bit.

Dave

[chrismuzz]

Recommended settings are always for the average player... there is no such thing! I would say my action is very low for the style I play, but it's a good few millimetres at the 12th fret! I get a lot of fretbuzz but I like that extra snarl it gives me... however that's quite irrelevant to the thread!

[dmccombe7]

The setting i have is from the standard setting which historically has always suited my playing. That was my starting point and if ok i tended to leave it there.
I think all my fretted basses are set up same way with 2.5mm at 12th fret on E and 2mm on G but i don't seem to get it on any other bass altho i don't use them live as often as my Jazz. Maybe i just need to eaze off a bit on my playing as it definately does affect how fast i can play.
The harder i hit the slower i play which is a common problem with many finger style bassists.
I did note that my fingers were a bit aching after rehearsal on Sat which is unusual for me so perhaps more volume less power from fingers and let the amp do the work is the solution here.
I've ordered the gauge up from my current D'Addario nickels (normally EXL190) and gone for their most common gauge EXL170's.
Will see if that helps.
From there its possible bass set up changes might be required.

Dave

[fingerz]

Yeh sounds like your strings are 'choking' when you dig in. Check your neck relief too, if your neck is straight letting a touch of tension off the truss rod might make the world of difference. No major issue here at all, just set up.

[gjones]

I could get a really low action on my old Geddy Lee, but that really thin neck would mean that small temp changes could affect the neck and lead to choking. I had to make the action higher to compensate for movement in the neck,

I would try making the action higher and see if it helps. It did for me.

[fingerz]

It's a shame the truss rod is tricky to get to. I had a student with a Geddy jazz, neck profile felt identical to my trusty Mij 75 reissue. My neck is stable but the odd tweak is really easy as it has a bullet truss rod. Being able to tweak tension is important if you set up 'close to the edge' (!).

[fingerz]

It's worth noting different strings have different tension. You might want to try experimenting with something that has higher tension so you don't choke them out so easily.

[dmccombe7]

Went for a gauge up 40, 60, 80, 100 but no real difference.
Will maybe raise the strings a touch.

One thing i did note last rehearsal was that using my AE112 cabs i get a lot of top end click when playing hard. I might have the horn attenuation set too high and i'm picking up more click high end when playing hard. I boosted the bottom end to compensate for the high end but found when standing directly in front of the amp the high end click had gone and i could only hear the lower end.
This might be more down to my cabs and that's why i've never noticed it over the many yrs i've been playing. These are the first "hi-fi" cabs with horn i've had and they do tend to pick up on every little noise from the neck or fingers.
Plan is :-
1. turn the horn off or put to minimum.
2. all compression removed.
3. put all amp settings to mid-point or 12 o'clock.
4. try turning amp gain down from limit point at 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock.
5. try playing lighter and let amp do the work.
6. use another bass and see if same playing at same levels
7. if not raise string height by 0.5mm across neck at 12th fret.
8. look at the neck relief and adjust if need be.

Thanks for help guys and i'll post what happens after rehearsals this Sun.

Dave

[Muppet]

Oddly I had a similar problem a few years back and I was using a 4Pro. I had it serviced and new preamp valves put in and no more problem. I'm not saying that's definitely your problem but might be worth trying another amp just to check if your other checks yield no results?

Cheers

Steve

[dmccombe7]

Cheers Steve,
Hadn't considered that possibility but i'll try the Ashdown amp in the studio on Sun and see if it makes a difference

Dave

[bassmachine2112]

I would lower the pick ups I get this at normal heights and have to drop them down on all my basses,it,s like the speakers are spitting at you.
I,m a bit of a big hitter as well.

[dmccombe7]

Just an update on prob.
Changed the strings and that didn't seem to help.
Took the tweeter off completely on both cabs and that improved dramatically.
Dropped the high end a touch - back to 12 oclock and that seems to have done the trick.
I think the tweeter set up was too loud and was giving the impression that i was losing the low end when i was actually hearing too much hi end if that makes sense.
The odd thing was that when i stood in front off or next to my cab it was very deep and plenty of low end it was only when i moved out to approx 4-5m in front to listen to overall band sound that i really noticed it.
I'm taking my other Berg HT322 this weekend to feel the comparison and hopefully that will be it sorted.

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Dave